A dreadful week

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General Melchett said:
I'm not really convinced by that argument. Are 1p5wich building and have been for the last 10 years in the championship? Each season we have signed better players and had what appears from the outside a great team spirit and work ethic. Now I am not a complete tool, whilst a lot of money for city, we have not spent much against the rest of the premier league. But are we now going backwards on the pitch inspite of being in possibly our best ever health off it? I happen to think so. Any little positives in the way we have played so far this season are for me outweighed by the negatives. Some ongoing from last season and some new ones.

Bah!
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Sorry to keep responding to you Melchett... nothing personal! It's just you keep touching on the same issues running through my head


It might sound strange in the context of a 7-0 defeat, but I actually don't think we are going backwards on the pitch, despite Saturday's dreadful performance. Yes, there we were awful and there are still several gaping holes, but I ahve to say I have found the football significantly better (apart from the key part of getting it in the net) than it has been for a long time.

I think you highlight the key point, though, when you refer to the team spirit. It's my worry that this is what is being lost. Rusty's pointed statement to the press doesn't alleviate my concern entirely. Something appears to be going wrong there and I think that, while Hughton is getting us to play in the way I want, has brought in good players and has improved the team in other respects (including scouting), if he loses the dressing room and therefore the wonderful team spirit, he really has to go. Holloway, much as many don't like it, did a very decent thing by admitting that he had lost the team spirit at Palace. He's more perceptive than people give him credit - he accepted that sometimes, team spirit is something that even a decent manager doing everything else right can't recover.
 
Canary Rob said:
Sorry to keep responding to you Melchett... nothing personal! It's just you keep touching on the same issues running through my head


It might sound strange in the context of a 7-0 defeat, but I actually don't think we are going backwards on the pitch, despite Saturday's dreadful performance. Yes, there we were awful and there are still several gaping holes, but I ahve to say I have found the football significantly better (apart from the key part of getting it in the net) than it has been for a long time.

I think you highlight the key point, though, when you refer to the team spirit. It's my worry that this is what is being lost. Rusty's pointed statement to the press doesn't alleviate my concern entirely. Something appears to be going wrong there and I think that, while Hughton is getting us to play in the way I want, has brought in good players and has improved the team in other respects (including scouting), if he loses the dressing room and therefore the wonderful team spirit, he really has to go. Holloway, much as many don't like it, did a very decent thing by admitting that he had lost the team spirit at Palace. He's more perceptive than people give him credit - he accepted that sometimes, team spirit is something that even a decent manager doing everything else right can't recover.
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we certainly appear to have gone backwards this week, i'll give people that. but the week before it was evident that progress was being made - everybody picked up on it. league position might not show this but we have looked a better side overall this season, unfortunately we haven't done it enough and we haven't been able to put the final touches to some decent approach play and now we've just had the week from hell to compound all the injuries and suddenly, people now think we are going backwards. what a difference a week makes!
 
Canary Rob said:
Sorry to keep responding to you Melchett... nothing personal! It's just you keep touching on the same issues running through my head


It might sound strange in the context of a 7-0 defeat, but I actually don't think we are going backwards on the pitch, despite Saturday's dreadful performance. Yes, there we were awful and there are still several gaping holes, but I ahve to say I have found the football significantly better (apart from the key part of getting it in the net) than it has been for a long time.

I think you highlight the key point, though, when you refer to the team spirit. It's my worry that this is what is being lost. Rusty's pointed statement to the press doesn't alleviate my concern entirely. Something appears to be going wrong there and I think that, while Hughton is getting us to play in the way I want, has brought in good players and has improved the team in other respects (including scouting), if he loses the dressing room and therefore the wonderful team spirit, he really has to go. Holloway, much as many don't like it, did a very decent thing by admitting that he had lost the team spirit at Palace. He's more perceptive than people give him credit - he accepted that sometimes, team spirit is something that even a decent manager doing everything else right can't recover.
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It isn't necessarily a matter of CH "losing the dressing room"; it can be as much or even more to do with unity or otherwise among the players themselves. <ok>
 
Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed said:
we certainly appear to have gone backwards this week, i'll give people that. but the week before it was evident that progress was being made - everybody picked up on it. league position might not show this but we have looked a better side overall this season, unfortunately we haven't done it enough and we haven't been able to put the final touches to some decent approach play and now we've just had the week from hell to compound all the injuries and suddenly, people now think we are going backwards. what a difference a week makes!
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You are not in a hopeless position in the league and a win will see you rise into mid table of course depending on other results. If I was a Sunderland fan I would be very worried but I see no reason why you cant make some sort of recovery. Newcastle and Liverpool are tough games and I doubt you will get much from them but West Ham and Palace should be very winnable. Banter aside I think you will do just enough this year with or without Hughton! <ok>
 
johnnywarksmoustache said:
You are not in a hopeless position in the league and a win will see you rise into mid table of course depending on other results. If I was a Sunderland fan I would be very worried but I see no reason why you cant make some sort of recovery. Newcastle and Liverpool are tough games and I doubt you will get much from them but West Ham and Palace should be very winnable. Banter aside I think you will do just enough this year with or without Hughton! <ok>
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i certainly don't think we'll go down. of course, it is not impossible but i fancy us to finish above at least four or five of the other sides. once again, the sides below the top teams have little between them, although because of the money invested in the top flight, i think the standard of players on show has increased slightly. any three from 12 will go down. basic overview admittedly, but that gives us a 75% chance of survival.
 
robbieBB said:
It isn't necessarily a matter of CH "losing the dressing room"; it can be as much or even more to do with unity or otherwise among the players themselves. <ok>
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In my book, I'm not sure the technical difference alters the fact that if the spirit falls apart, manager's fault entirely or otherwise, it's likely to be the manager that takes the flak.
 
Canary Rob said:
In my book, I'm not sure the technical difference alters the fact that if the spirit falls apart, manager's fault entirely or otherwise, it's likely to be the manager that takes the flak.
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this is true. the last weeks performances does make you wonder if the dressing room is united, but the week before they certainly were. saturday will tell us one way or the other
 
Longsightcanary said:
If any of you are interested in how academics rate football managers, see below

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/21649480.2013.768829#.Une3-_kRKKI
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Quite a lot of research on this. There is an interesting chapter in the book referred to in my signature about the appointment and sacking of Villas Boas at Chelsea. What it concludes is that Chelsea's performance under AVB was exactly what could have been predicted, i.e. that when Abramovich made the appointment he should have/and could have realised that expecting more from AVB than he actually delivered under the brief he was given was unrealistic. What happened at Chelsea implied nothing about the quality of AVB as a manager (e.g. "he failed"), but a great deal about the poorness of judgement shown by those who appointed him given the brief he had. <ok>
 
Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed said:
we certainly appear to have gone backwards this week, i'll give people that. but the week before it was evident that progress was being made - everybody picked up on it. league position might not show this but we have looked a better side overall this season, unfortunately we haven't done it enough and we haven't been able to put the final touches to some decent approach play and now we've just had the week from hell to compound all the injuries and suddenly, people now think we are going backwards. what a difference a week makes!
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I'm sorry, it's not a case of "people think we are going backwards". We have very much gone backwards. Saturday was a very big leap backwards. It was damaging to the feelings of the crowd and almost certainly damaging to the morale of the squad. To assert that it was only the "appearance" of going backwards is blind faith. It was, without a doubt, disastrous.

The question I was really asking is - is it recoverable? I would agree with you that until last week we looked a better side overall and we have been unfortunate. This suggests we can recover from this set-back. There is also no concrete evidence that team spirit has been lost. This also suggests we could recover from this massive set-back. I was merely registering a concern that team spirit has been lost. It was the spirit that was making Norwich greater than the sum of its parts and getting us to 12th then 11th place. If that is lost, a new manager is undoubtedly needed because it is a gigantic leap backwards. If it hasn't, we will be sure to see it in evidence soon.
 
Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed said:
i certainly don't think we'll go down. of course, it is not impossible but i fancy us to finish above at least four or five of the other sides. once again, the sides below the top teams have little between them, although because of the money invested in the top flight, i think the standard of players on show has increased slightly. any three from 12 will go down. basic overview admittedly, but that gives us a 75% chance of survival.
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I had Hull as my nailed on favourites to go down and they still might BUT they cant stop winning at home! They have had a huge amount of luck mind with sendings off for the opposition as you know only too well! The whole point is that at this moment it is far too early to be worried about league position but when a rotten run of results sets in it can quickly become a downward spiral. We know all about those <yikes> The West Ham game I would argue will be your most important game since you got into the Premiership!
 
Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed said:
this is true. the last weeks performances does make you wonder if the dressing room is united, but the week before they certainly were. saturday will tell us one way or the other
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Agreed.

The real problem will arise if, for example, we have someone sent off unluckily, etc., because it becomes very difficult to differentiate bad luck from bad atmosphere.
 
Canary Rob said:
In my book, I'm not sure the technical difference alters the fact that if the spirit falls apart, manager's fault entirely or otherwise, it's likely to be the manager that takes the flak.
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Of course, but if it is unity among the players that is the issue, it won't necessarily be resolved by a change of manager -- as witness Sunderland. <ok>
 
jammis said:
You can't ignore 10 games simply to suit your argument, they either happened or they didn't.
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i'm not ignoring it - to ignore it would have been to quote the games/points accumulated after then only...i'm more just pointing out where we might well be had we not had it. to include it in any argument doesn't make much better reading really, does it?

worried about what is going on with our club at the moment, not just on the pitch, but in the stands...forums. said it towards the end of last season, that the feeling around the club wasn't right, and bar a few months over the summer when we were dazzled by some impressive signings, things have gone back to where they were.

for me, part of that is down the players, part of it down to the fans, but a large part of it has to be down to CH and his backroom...for that reason more than anything, think we have to be close to a change...not a knee jerk, because that can go ever so wrong, as many a wolves fan will tell you, but we need to start planning for our next manager sooner rather than later, because this just isn't going to work out from here.

I don't think we were on the beach when we played man city last season - far from it. they most certainly were.
 
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