Grand Prix thread 2017 Hungarian Grand Prix Chat and Predictions

The internet would break.

 

And Andrew Benson would need a month off with distress.

 

Not a classic but nonetheless, a race which will be remembered.

Alonso and di Resta (in his own way), were heroic. Verstappen still thinks he's on a race sim and Ricciardo was restrained where others might have lamped him. Raikkonen was quicker than Vettel for most of the race, especially towards the end; but unlike the most memorable aspect of this meeting, Ferrari would never dream of allowing their leading championship contender to be passed by a team mate...

Bottas did the right thing in letting Hamilton have a go at catching the Ferraris. The latter had been quicker throughout and perhaps should have been let through sooner. Nevertheless, fair play to Bottas. After the swap, the Ferraris sped up and he couldn't keep pace. He knew he had to keep close in order to justify another team reversal: something not seen even once during the modern era (please correct me, someone!). With just laps to go, the gap to Hamilton had grown to about eight secs and he was coming under pressure from Verstappen with a load of back markers between himself and his team mate. By this stage, he must have resigned himself to fourth. The gap was too big. There were complications with back markers, Verstappen was too close. I doubt anyone would seriously have blamed Hamilton for taking the extra points in what could be a very closely fought season. And despite Wolff's statement, with the situation as it was, there was no second order: they left it up to their drivers. What Hamilton did was the sort of thing one might associate with Fangio or Clark, or perhaps a Hill or two. Very few others - including his idol, Senna, would have done that.

In my opinion, it was honourable and magnanimous in the extreme. Tennis excepted (it currently has several truly great sportsmen but a similar situation cannot arise), I can't think of any other individual in any sport who'd have done it.

Am I going over the top? Maybe. But chivalry, valour and honour are values I hold dear and they are rarely seen in the modern era, particularly in my sport.

I'd like to add that it is gratifying to see most of the forum acknowledging something similar.

 

To be fair, Hamilton really owed the spot back to Bottas and he'd have taken an absolute shoeing if he'd have taken third place, plus Bottas would refuse to give up the position if there's a similar situation in the future. All around he did the right thing giving the spot back, but I don't see it as generous. It did avoid a potential PR mess though.

 

I take your point, Bhaji. What's more, in principle I agree he 'owed' it.
However, Bottas was told he'd need to keep up in order to justify a reversal to their previous positions. He didn't keep up. Hamilton extended the gap to eight seconds and the situation had evolved in his favour.

For comparison though, can you imagine the likes of Vettel, Verstappen, Schumacher etc. doing it? My opinion? – Not a chance; especially with a gap that had grown so much over such a short time.

In the heat of battle though, Hamilton agreed with your gallant point of view.

 

Probably not Schuey, but he was ruthless. Not sure about Vettel in that same situation. Hard to call that one.

 

Vettel models himself on Schumacher and has flatly refused team orders when he was following Webber – almost taking them both out of what was already a certain 1 - 2. I'm sure you'll not have forgotten Red Bull called it "Multi 21". Vettel couldn't have cared less; he is every bit as ruthless as Schumacher. For that matter, so is Verstappen. Now, I'm not criticising ruthlessness per se: it is an essential factor in being a winner. Almost every driver who's ever sat on an F1 grid has been ruthless in one guise or another in order to get there, including Hamilton.

But this is my real point: although Vettel took the Chequered Flag, the biggest winner was a concept called 'sport'. And that is a rarity – especially in motor racing.

 

You just don't rise to the top of a sport without being ruthless, but this situation was slightly different than some instances where drivers have ignored team orders as a level of faith was set out in the whole deal. To not give the spot back would have left any driver looking like a bit of a plum.

 

Didn't Vettel do that a few years back? Blurry memory.

 

Do you help Benson write his articles? Only once has Vettel ignored a team order, and that was during a race where he had been promised the chance to have a go for the lead if he stayed behind 'slow' Webber for the time being. And let us not forget how many times Webber did his best to ignore team orders in the past, most notably at Silverstone where he admitted, on camera, that it was fair to ignore team orders and challenge Vettel as they could've been racing for the win. 'Heroic' and 'gentlemanly' team player, Lewis, has ignored every single team order given him until this one, which included blocking Alonso in Hungary during qualifying back in his rookie year, after being told to let him through, and that caused all the ensuing fall-out. And, by the way he had PROMISED that if Bottas let him past he would give the place back, how noble is it to keep a promise? I dunno about you, but I try very hard not to break mine, nothing noble or magnanimous about it.

Oh, I seem to have missed an order Lewis obeyed, when, he was told to lie to stewards, he accepted that order, if it was actually given, could be they threw Ryan to wolves to save Hamilton.

 

Mark Webber

 

The great pretenders.....

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/mercedes-amg-f1/the-steering-column-a-tale-of-two-philosophies/

It shows how desperate Merc are in creating an 'us and them' scenario. They certainly are milking their "sportsmanship" at Ferrari's expense. As Miggs has stated, there have been numerous failed orders given by Merc and failed orders followed in the past. As much as I respect Lewis for what he did, this was probably the one time he probably shouldn't have followed it. No one disputes that Ferrari's aim is to win, its very easy for Merc (with the best car) to pass judgement after so many years of domination, and more importantly their refusal to relinquish that advantage they held over the entire field - as the Americans have pointed out - a 2 car race series! If that was Lewis/Nico last year at the front in Ferrari's situation, do you think they would have switched? No chance and neither driver would have complied, so how they can judge Ferrari (or anybody else) is laughable.

This scenario now developing is about the pressure Toto is coming under and his comments (and the team's) are simply to cast doubt over the fantastic legitimate competition we now have from Ferrari. We now actually have a race series at the front and Merc making reference to Ferrari team orders is spiteful. I question how Kimi was to overtake Vettel when Lewis and Bottas could not overtake either? The superfast Lewis couldn't overtake his own teammate, let alone a Ferrari! The insinuation that Vettel should have moved over for Kimi in this race as being a sporting gesture equivalent to Merc's is absurd!

Lets also remember that Vettel lost the China race because he had to fight past Kimi (stuck behind the RBs) which took the best part of 15 laps whilst Bottas moved out of the way twice. Lewis also owes Bottas a return of position from earlier in this season. To infer that Vettel hasn't earned his points tally to date is unsporting in itself.

I actually feel sorry for Lewis in all this. His actions are being undone by the team's insistent on creating the perception that they are whiter than white.

 

You would be correct to make that point if you ignore the fact that Hamilton opened a 8 second gap on Bottas in about five laps and Bottos could not close it and was in fact coming under pressure for 4th place from Verstappen.
Let me give this analogy....Bottas loan Hamilton £100 with the promise of Hamilton returning it in a month's time if he can't make a profit of double the amount. Hamilton didn't make the £200, but he had a healthy profit (8 seconds in five laps) and he chose to have it all back to Bottas. I don't even think Bottas would have expected that especially since he was under pressure and they could have both lost out on positions. People need to be honest, they knock Hamilton on everything including bending over backwards to give back a place almost on the finish line. What he did was totally honorable.

Now, if he were overtaken by Verstappen for 4th place, would Hamilton be expected to give the place back...since it was an agreement. Point I am making is if Bottas were overtaken by Verstappen, it would be reasonable to think that he would have had to overtake Lewis before...

I was happy that Hamilton gave the place back especially since the extra three points are crucial Sunday. I think it will earn him extra points in the second half, especially if Bottas has to give way to help Hamilton score championship winning points. It shows he is using his head and playing the long game also. Don't forget, Hamilton is still only 14 points away from the lead, with a gearbox problem that gave him a grid penalty, dodgy tyres that were causing vibrations during qualifying and the one that hurt him most was the faulty headrest when he was sailing to an easy win, with no one even close. No to give back those three point after pulling out eight seconds would have been a unthinkable for most if not all drivers, but Hamilton did.

 

I don't think there is any need to feel sorry for Lewis, he did the honorable thing and he seems happy about it. He made his own decision, because there wasn't a second order to give back the place, so the gesture was more Lewis' rather than Mercedes. Remember they told Bottas to keep on the back of Lewis just in case of the swap back, buT Bottas was nowhere to be found after the next five laps. Last year against Rosberg, Lewis told the team that if Rosberg can get close enough on his new, faster tyres, he would give up his place...Rosberg couldn't close the gap to Hamilton on old tyres...a different case altogether.

 

The only way Ferrari would have been in the wrong in Hungary would have been if the Mercs caught and passed both of their cars. Didn't happen though.

 

I agree...I have no problem with that Ferrari did....if they had let Kimi through Vettel would have been a sitting duck for at least Hamilton who had the pace and might have teen him in one of the corners. He had to be very cautious in the corner and was being told to keep off the kerbs. So basically they had no choice if they wanted to keep the 1-2 result. Don't kid yourself, we all know that Ferrari would her let Kimi win over Vettel, it was proven already this season, but especially in Sunday's race they had to protect Vettel against the quickly approaching Mercedes of Lewis. So I have no problems there.

 

The problem now for Mercedes at half way stage is how do you respond...you have four drivers taking points off your points leader, but only three taking points off Ferrari points and championship leader, as Kimi is not allowed to take points off Vettel...so how does Mercedes respond in the second half? Do you decide to put all your remaining eggs in one basket to ensure a championship result or continue like the first half...remember this is not like previous years when both contenders were from the same team, so they have to look to manage the situation differently especially since Red Bull is coming up quickly. What makes things difficult is that Bottas isn't that far off Lewis in terms of points, but I am sure that if Mercedes had a choice of picking one for a war they know exactly which is most likely to emerge winner.

 

Hahaha, I asked for that didn't I !!

I concede that my post may have been a bit OTT (actually, I think I acknowledged it in the post itself).
I've not read Benson since the start of the season. As I've made clear in the past, he is just about my least favourite journalist. Any similarities are a very unfortunate accident!

Nevertheless, the thrust of what I was saying was genuine: that in such circumstances, I cannot remember another driver choosing to honour a gentleman's agreement in the modern era – and had Hamilton not given back the place, it would have been understandable to a great many (including 'neutrals') despite the inevitable criticism from those who dislike him for whatever reason. I've not read the article pointed at by Smithers either but I can understand the cynicism from the other side of the fence. Naturally, Mercedes wish to make capital from what happened. (I repeat: I've not read it but from what Smithers says it seems the article takes a pot shot at Ferrari).

My position has never altered. Ferrari has always focussed upon competition and has little regard for sportsmanship. In the modern era, it has always been more concerned with the Drivers' Championship and has always done the utmost to maximise points for its leading driver, with one despicable exception; despite leading the championship after the first round, Irvine was ordered to defer to Schumacher in the very next race (which I personally found sickening). I'll not bother repeating other examples. There are far too many. So yeah, an example crystallised on Sunday. I for one, was pleased to see what happened. My beef is with the lack of sportsmanship in motor racing, championed by Ferrari*. It always has been. If Mercedes are milking it, no wonder. *For the record – which I also accept may be considered a bit OTT! – it's also why I've repeatedly eschewed Ferrari's interest in selling me a new car; I've not had one since the beautiful 308 four decades ago.

I understand that tifosi will not like my words. (This is not a slur upon any forum member; it is obvious that those who support Ferrari come what may will not like what I'm saying).

 

It's possible to be a fan of Ferrari and acknowledge/accept the way they operate. In reality other teams need to operate in a similar manner at times... With exception to their bonkers hiring/firing cycles.

 

Yes. I fully accept that, Bhaji.
In fact, had Mercedes / Hamilton done just that on Sunday, I for one would have accepted it as par for the course. This is why I think what actually happened was so exceptional. Maybe that's why I've gone a bit OTT: what I witnessed surprised me in a very positive way!