Match Day Thread 2016/17 Premier League, Cups & Euro Watch

InBiscanWeTrust said:

When i say top job I'm talking anything Prem level like giggs to Swansea. Players shouldn't walk into Prem jobs in their first proper job, they ahould go to lower clubs and work there way up. Prove their worth.

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But the odds are stacked against them. Even if they prove their worth they'll be jetisoned at the first sign of trouble for a newe, foreign model. Look at Southampton when they came up. Look at Leicester as well. That's just two off the top of my head in recent years. Just look at the prem as it is right now ffs Hardly full of managers that have worked their way up is it?

johnsonsbaby said:

That wasn't what I was refuting. Didn't you see the bit I put in bold? That's the bit I was refuting.

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Yes

Did you read the paragraph in which that was the last sentence?

Diego said:

Yes

Did you read the paragraph in which that was the last sentence?

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So I bolded something and refuted it. You ignored that and chose another bit of trebs comment and said I'd refuted that [when I hadn't] and now you want me to look at which last sentence?

johnsonsbaby said:

So I bolded something and refuted it. You ignored that and chose another bit of trebs comment and said I'd refuted that [when I hadn't] and now you want me to look at which last sentence?

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Right, I will take this slowly.
You bolded

It's noble principle but those days sadly, are consigned to history.

You then countered this sentence with

I refute that with two words.....Eddie Howe

Those two statement make absolutely no sense at all, either on there own or taken together unless you bother to read the paragraph they referring to

Diego said:

Right, I will take this slowly.
You bolded

It's noble principle but those days sadly, are consigned to history.

You then countered this sentence with

I refute that with two words.....Eddie Howe

Those two statement make absolutely no sense at all, either on there own or taken together unless you bother to read the paragraph they referring to

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You've chosen 'the noble principle' to be ''the statement that it's unlikely for a lower team manager to be given a job by a top club?''.
That isn't a principle, so cannot be noble or otherwise. Now go back and see if you can actually spot the noble principle that I was refuting.

johnsonsbaby said:

You've chosen 'the noble principle' to be ''the statement that it's unlikely for a lower team manager to be given a job by a top club?''.
That isn't a principle, so cannot be noble or otherwise. Now go back and see if you can actually spot the noble principle that I was refuting.

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I take it you are talking about the working your way up angle, if so then the words Eddie Howe do not refute this.
He has worked at two lower league clubs and managed to get one promoted therefore not made the jump to PL but moved up with the club, this is working hard and well at a lower level not working his way up. If he hadn't gained promotion do you think top flight clubs would be thinking of him as their next manager?
As hard and as well as he has worked, if he hadn't brought a lower league team into the PL he would be unlikely to be chased by a PL team when looking for a new manager.

So, what are we saying? Because it's difficult for a manager to start at a lower level and work his way up we should let ex players walk into the top jobs because they were good players?
All this means is that we get a load of poor managers because they believe that being a good player automatically makes you good manager material.
And we know that's not true. Many of the top managers were mediocre players, and vice versa.

saintKlopp said:

So, what are we saying? Because it's difficult for a manager to start at a lower level and work his way up we should let ex players walk into the top jobs because they were good players?
All this means is that we get a load of poor managers because they believe that being a good player automatically makes you good manager material.
And we know that's not true. Many of the top managers were mediocre players, and vice versa.

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Nope, what I (and I think Trebs) was saying is that it's unusual/unlikely that a manager who has only ever managed at a lower level will be given a chance in the PL. Howe has been brought into this but he has now moved out of that sphere because he has moved from a lower league manager to a PL manager with the same club, had he not done that he would find it much harder to get a job further up the pecking order.
Players going straight into top flight management on name alone is a total lottery but for some reason seems more likely than a good manager from a lower league getting the chance.

Diego said:

Nope, what I (and I think Trebs) was saying is that it's unusual/unlikely that a manager who has only ever managed at a lower level will be given a chance in the PL. Howe has been brought into this but he has now moved out of that sphere because he has moved from a lower league manager to a PL manager with the same club, had he not done that he would find it much harder to get a job further up the pecking order.
Players going straight into top flight management on name alone is a total lottery but for some reason seems more likely than a good manager from a lower league getting the chance.

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Surely the point is that he isn't given a stab at a PL club on the basis of what he does in league 2, but starts lower and works his way up incrementally?
What prevents this is the modern desire for instant success rather than building something from the ground up that will last. The trend for awarding jobs based on playing achievements will only result in a poor or average managerial standard domestically, and perpetuate the need to bring in others from abroad.

Shearer says the next England manager must be English - but really, how many realistic candidates are there?

saintKlopp said:

So, what are we saying? Because it's difficult for a manager to start at a lower level and work his way up we should let ex players walk into the top jobs because they were good players?
All this means is that we get a load of poor managers because they believe that being a good player automatically makes you good manager material.
And we know that's not true. Many of the top managers were mediocre players, and vice versa.

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Conte, Klopp, Benitez, Ancelotti, Guardiola etc. all started at second division or lower jobs. The problem seems to be in England, as ex players who drop down a division or two to gain experience in other European countries benefit from the experience and don't seem to be hampered by it at all.

saintKlopp said:

Surely the point is that he isn't given a stab at a PL club on the basis of what he does in league 2, but starts lower and works his way up incrementally?
What prevents this is the modern desire for instant success rather than building something from the ground up that will last. The trend for awarding jobs based on playing achievements will only result in a poor or average managerial standard domestically, and perpetuate the need to bring in others from abroad.

Shearer says the next England manager must be English - but really, how many realistic candidates are there?

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I don't think anybody is saying it's right, just that it's the way it is.
Let me put it like this, if Klopp left tomorrow and Liverpool recruited a very good manager from a lower league who had never managed in the PL before would you be ecstatic and saying "yes, this is the man"?

Lucaaas said:

Conte, Klopp, Benitez, Ancelotti, Guardiola etc. all started at second division or lower jobs. The problem seems to be in England, as ex players who drop down a division or two to gain experience in other European countries benefit from the experience and don't seem to be hampered by it at all.

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Quite right, it's a PL problem more than other top leagues.

Diego said:

I don't think anybody is saying it's right, just that it's the way it is.
Let me put it like this, if Klopp left tomorrow and Liverpool recruited a very good manager from a lower league who had never managed in the PL before would you be ecstatic and saying "yes, this is the man"?

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I think we're both saying the same thing, more or less.
You're right in that that is how it is, but I'm saying it doesn't have to be. Things only change if there is the will to change them - acceptance of the status quo perpetuates it. There's more chance of developing a good crop of managers from the promising players of recent times by letting them cut their teeth, and prove their worth, at a lower level.
Of course if Klopp left we wouldn't be ecstatic at the appointment of an obscure man from the lower divisions, but that isn't what I'm saying. They start lower but gradually work their way up, and their achievements as managers earn them their chance at a top club, not their reputations as players.
It's still a risk, of course, but there's a little more to go on than just chucking a good player in at the deep end.

Anyway, I'm a bit pissed and knackered, so I'm off to me pit.
Have fun.

saintKlopp said:

I think we're both saying the same thing, more or less.
You're right in that that is how it is, but I'm saying it doesn't have to be. Things only change if there is the will to change them - acceptance of the status quo perpetuates it. There's more chance of developing a good crop of managers from the promising players of recent times by letting them cut their teeth, and prove their worth, at a lower level.
Of course if Klopp left we wouldn't be ecstatic at the appointment of an obscure man from the lower divisions, but that isn't what I'm saying. They start lower but gradually work their way up, and their achievements as managers earn them their chance at a top club, not their reputations as players.
It's still a risk, of course, but there's a little more to go on than just chucking a good player in at the deep end.

Anyway, I'm a bit pissed and knackered, so I'm off to me pit.
Have fun.

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I didn't say obscure, I said good but I know what you mean, you only want a top man

G'night Saint, I am off up the wooden hill myself now

Diego said:

Quite right, it's a PL problem more than other top leagues.

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I think its a British problem to be honest.

I look at the second divisions of most top leagues (Italy, England, Spain etc.) and I see huge 'names' there. Ex-players like Hierro, Panucci, Gattuso, Hasselbaink & Stam all taking a step backwards to the 2nd division to make a name for themselves and gaining the proper experience before stepping up to the top level. How many ex-England internationals do I see managing? Nigel Clough, he's the only one I can see in the second division managing a club.

There's a whole generation of English managers/ex-players missing. They'd rather sit in Sky/BBC/BT studios than manage a club.

Its a shame because someone like Gary Neville had real potential to go far but he got appointed in a job too big for him that came too quickly and he tanked so badly no club will ever touch him again. Paul Ince should've stuck in the lower leagues for a little more instead of jumping straight to Blackburn, Tony Adams is another example. If Giggs had been appointed as Swansea boss he'd be going much the same way.

Lucaaas said:

I think its a British problem to be honest.

I look at the second divisions of most top leagues (Italy, England, Spain etc.) and I see huge 'names' there. Ex-players like Hierro, Panucci, Gattuso, Hasselbaink & Stam all taking a step backwards to the 2nd division to make a name for themselves and gaining the proper experience before stepping up to the top level. How many ex-England internationals do I see managing? Nigel Clough, he's the only one I can see in the second division managing a club.

There's a whole generation of English managers/ex-players missing. They'd rather sit in Sky/BBC/BT studios than manage a club.

Its a shame because someone like Gary Neville had real potential to go far but he got appointed in a job too big for him that came too quickly and he tanked so badly no club will ever touch him again. Paul Ince should've stuck in the lower leagues for a little more instead of jumping straight to Blackburn, Tony Adams is another example. If Giggs had been appointed as Swansea boss he'd be going much the same way.

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You can add Karanka to the list as well now.

On this debate.

This goes back to decision making.

Look at nigel clough... basically spent years at burton then moved.. badly to daddys old teams. If he wanted a move you dont do that.

I do think the prem disease is spreading into championship though. Teams giving far less time to get results.

Managerial novices need to make shrewd career decisions and never stay in one place too long and risk the sack.

There is an assumption in england that a giggs can be a manager cos he will be respected
This doesnt exist anywhere wlse in europe i think.

Look at david platt in italy. He got a sampdoria job and was basically not allowed on the sideline has he had no qualifications. We write it off as them not liking english.. but.... while that might have been the case the establishment said it required a standard and made it impossibke to deliver.

Neville went to valencia without badges and not a wird of spanish. He ended his managerial career before it started.

A shrewd guy will build up by being a no 2 or even a youth coach. Obtain his badges asap. Go oit into europe to coaching conferences, build networks, learn the game.. make links to be able to find players.. etc etc.

Top players have everything handed to them. They never learn these key do it for yourself skills do they? Their agents dont want them too!

moreinjuredthanowen said:

On this debate.

This goes back to decision making.

Look at nigel clough... basically spent years at burton then moved.. badly to daddys old teams. If he wanted a move you dont do that.!

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Good point. Someone sensible would've stayed well away from his fathers ex-clubs and concentrated on making a reputation for himself at other clubs. He was never going to be compared favourably to a title and European cup winning manager.

The thing with Howe is that he spent most of his playing career at Bournemouth, he knew the club inside out and took over after retirement at a very young age for a manager. He started with the trust of his players who he played with and would run through brick walls for him. I think once you have that then others who join the club will follow. If he left Bournemouth would he have the same influence?

Lucaaas said:

Good point. Someone sensible would've stayed well away from his fathers ex-clubs and concentrated on making a reputation for himself at other clubs. He was never going to be compared favourably to a title and European cup winning manager.

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Yeah. there really is a long list of guys who just have made errors.

Look at mark hughes. He did quite well at Blackburn and got his big move to city. In actual fact that was a really odd appointment by the arabs and he was faced with an offer of a big job after 5 years in wales and 4 in Blackburn so he ought to be ready... BUT he should have seen that this lot were always going to be really impatient and there were powers that would be buying players for him. He lasted a year and basically has spent 7/8 years trying to recover from it.

Fulham job... not ideal, qpr disaster... stoke quite good but it seems to have gone pear shaped now.

This is a guy who had a reputation in spain as a player and could probably have gone out there like toshack and done a job there. instead he's taken jobs that i think he should have swerved. Fulham after hodgson... they were awful back then and while hodgson got a eruopa final they almost went down.. it was a disaster job. QPR... same story.mad owners tossing cash about and really chaotic club.

Its not easy build a career I think and frnakly maybe we just don't hear about the guys like this in spain and italy who never surface cos they mess up too?