General Election 4th July ...

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Bairn asked me before she went to school what happens now Dad, I just said things will continue to get a lot worse over the next 5 years pet. Her response, well I’m pretty happy dad it doesn’t bother me, I’ll be at University probably. What a wake up call that response was, I need to find the money for her to be brainwashed by leftie lunatics at University
 
Smug in Boots said:
I've no problem with that whatsoever.

As a starting point, as this is about Reform, could you spell out what their policy is for immigration, legal and illegal, and how they would deal with the small boats.

I've honestly no idea.
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I'm really hopeful we can have some good dialogue, I am quite pessimistic about where this country is heading today, whatever the next 5 years bring, unless we can find some kind of common ground I think there is a real potential for a gross overcorrection and whilst I personally, think we need some big changes, there are obviously limits to that.

Here is the Reform manifesto
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/re...718625371/Reform_UK_Our_Contract_with_You.pdf

I think it's more efficient to read directly from it using key word searches rather than me copy and pasting bits and pieces that I might get wrong.

It's also probably worth mentioning that I believe a fair percentage of Reform voters probably didn't bother to read their manifesto, they know that Farage is broadly for cutting immigration and because of that they forego a lot of specific data and make a more general decision. This might seem stupid, in fact it might actually be stupid, but they are entitled to a vote and an opinion just like the rest of us.

I'm very conscious that these conversations can become partisan quite quickly so I would emphasise that if we are able to start from the assumption that Reform are very bad but that they have attracted somewhat large levels of support due to issues relating to immigration that mean a lot to a reasonable chunk of the electorate, I think if we can agree with that statement in bold, we are on the same page. The next important question would be, is it reasonable to quell support for Reform and parties/organisations like them, by assessing and acting upon their concerns?

The former question I think should attract broad agreement, the latter question more personal, but I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.
 
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LBW said:
Bairn asked me before she went to school what happens now Dad, I just said things will continue to get a lot worse over the next 5 years pet. Her response, well I’m pretty happy dad it doesn’t bother me, I’ll be at University probably. What a wake up call that response was, I need to find the money for her to be brainwashed by leftie lunatics at University
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Leftie claptrap, like scientific principals, critical thinking, fact checking, some basic economics, etc. ? <doh>
 
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LBW said:
Bairn asked me before she went to school what happens now Dad, I just said things will continue to get a lot worse over the next 5 years pet. Her response, well I’m pretty happy dad it doesn’t bother me, I’ll be at University probably. What a wake up call that response was, I need to find the money for her to be brainwashed by leftie lunatics at University
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WorkyTicketFTM said:
There was a video doing the rounds of a bloke walking around one of the more recent labour/CWU rallies asking lefty tossers waving flags related to immigration if they’d be happy to be added to a list of volunteers to house immigrants entering the country illegally and watching them all squirm and come up with excuses is hilarious.
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Lads, we now have a Labour government and whilst I have some of the same concerns and gripes you have, I think it would be better if we try to build a few bridges now, we have legitimate concerns and I think we should try and appeal to the other side through reason.
 
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WorkyTicketFTM said:
Yeah, but still quite crazy that you can pick up so many votes whilst getting so little seats.
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I am 74.y. o. and in my lifetime l have never heard/read so much about this fact of political life.
For decades the Liberal party then the Lib/Dems suffered this with only the odd squeak.
But now we have a neonazi like party lead by a Bush clone and suddenly ‘oh my !!!’
‘It’s soooo unfair booo hooo’
KTF
 
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alcoauth said:
I'm really hopeful we can have some good dialogue, I am quite pessimistic about where this country is heading today, whatever the next 5 years bring, unless we can find some kind of common ground I think there is a real potential for a gross overcorrection and whilst I personally, think we need some big changes, there are obviously limits to that.

Here is the Reform manifesto
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/re...718625371/Reform_UK_Our_Contract_with_You.pdf

I think it's more efficient to read directly from it using key word searches rather than me copy and pasting bits and pieces that I might get wrong.

It's also probably worth mentioning that I believe a fair percentage of Reform voters probably didn't bother to read their manifesto, they know that Farage is broadly for cutting immigration and because of that they forego a lot of specific data and make a more general decision. This might seem stupid, in fact it might actually be stupid, but they are entitled to a vote and an opinion just like the rest of us.

I'm very conscious that these conversations can become partisan quite quickly so I would emphasise that if we are able to start from the assumption that Reform are very bad but that they have attracted somewhat large levels of support due to issues relating to immigration that mean a lot to a reasonable chunk of the electorate, I think if we can agree with that statement in bold, we are on the same page. The next important question would be, is it reasonable to quell support for Reform and parties/organisations like them, by assessing and acting upon their concerns?

The former question I think should attract broad agreement, the latter question more personal, but I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.
Click to expand...
Isnt it more relevant to look at what Labour are going to do. They now have the power. Their plans are to smash the criminal gangs running the small boats, stop using hotels to house illegal immigrants and speed up returns to safe countries, new agreements with france and other countries in returns, help refugees in their region. That is from memory of their manifesto. There may be more I am forgetting.

I am to be convinced the above will work. And it feels. like the sort of things that will take time. New border forces, and new laws etc.

Personally not too sure illegal immigration will be much different under any govt. Saying you will stop the boats or smash the gangs is ok but is it achieveable in reality. If smashing criminal gangs were that easy I suspect it would have been done with drug gangs etc. Get rid of one, someone else fills the gap because money is to be made and there is a large demand for the service. As for removing the demand? Honestly dont know how you do that whilst the world is in the sort of state it is in.
 
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@alcoauth

Like your thinking, l respect the winning party and l hope they have some answers to the problems we face. Patience will be needed.
Certain things the election has thrown up are, lowest turnout since 1945, had Reform voted Tory in the 3 local elections to me NN8 all 3 would be tory wins. Strange.
It highlights for me what has been reflected on this thread, that many people didn't like the out going party, but were not happy with the alternatives.
 
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FellTop said:
Isnt it more relevant to look at what Labour are going to do. They now have the power. Their plans are to smash the criminal gangs running the small boats, stop using hotels to house illegal immigrants and speed up returns to safe countries, new agreements with france and other countries in returns, help refugees in their region. That is from memory of their manifesto. There may be more I am forgetting.

I am to be convinced the above will work. And it feels. like the sort of things that will take time. New border forces, and new laws etc.

Personally not too sure illegal immigration will be much different under any govt. Saying you will stop the boats or smash the gangs is ok but is it achieveable in reality. If smashing criminal gangs were that easy I suspect it would have been done with drug gangs etc. Get rid of one, someone else fills the gap because money is to be made and there is a large demand for the service. As for removing the demand? Honestly dont know how you do that whilst the world is in the sort of state it is in.
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I agree with the last paragraph. Unless there were dark forces at work, and it has been suggested that the civil service fulfilled that role, then saying and doing are really poles apart. The Tories said they would reduce immigration to the tens of thousands each year and we all saw how that panned out.
Easy for me to say mind, I’m an immigrant myself but in my defence I did it legally!
 
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Evil Jimmy Krankie said:
I agree with the last paragraph. Unless there were dark forces at work, and it has been suggested that the civil service fulfilled that role, then saying and doing are really poles apart. The Tories said they would reduce immigration to the tens of thousands each year and we all saw how that panned out.
Easy for me to say mind, I’m an immigrant myself but in my defence I did it legally!
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No no, British people who emigrate to another country are NOT immigrants. They are ex pats. There is a difference you see ;)
 
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If you have a small boat crowded with Ca.40 would be future citizens it might be reasonable to assume half or more are actually economic refugees. All filling the coffers of criminals.
Now here is a radical idea to greatly reduce the economic flow to these gangsters :-

How about if the various British embassies emlpoyed a clerk or two to take and check folk who are or claim to be refugees from conflict or famine and after thorough checks grant them leave to enter either temporarilly or permanently.
This will have two effects in my opinion.
a) Cost - much cheaper by at least halving the costs of housing & feeding both these and other illegal refugees.
b) The turnover for the criminal gangs would be greatly reduced thus making a huge dent in their ill gotten profits.

Worth a try l think instead of spunking millions and millions on hare-brained schemes about paying for flights and accomodation to foreign governments.
KTF
 
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alcoauth said:
Lads, we now have a Labour government and whilst I have some of the same concerns and gripes you have, I think it would be better if we try to build a few bridges now, we have legitimate concerns and I think we should try and appeal to the other side through reason.
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Oh, I’m not arsed in the slightest if I’m honest to me it’s a vote of whether your favourite colour is red or blue! I’d always give whoever came in or whatever was implemented a chance. The UK needs solidarity not more infighting. More than can be said for those who continually tried to disrupt and drag their heels with Brexit!
 
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WorkyTicketFTM said:
Oh, I’m not arsed in the slightest if I’m honest to me it’s a vote of whether your favourite colour is red or blue! I’d always give whoever came in or whatever was implemented a chance. The UK needs solidarity not more infighting. More than can be said for those who continually tried to disrupt and drag their heels with Brexit!
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Brexit, is that not done yet?
 
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The thing that Farage campaigned for has caused economic hardship and immigration has increased. Facts. So why do people like him so much ? Because they like his admiration of Putin or Trump ? Or something else they have in common with him?
He is an Eton rich boy funded by questionable funders who help his PR and air time. Maybe it’s that that people feel connected to ?
Any other ideas?
 
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Pure River Slut said:
The thing that Farage campaigned for has caused economic hardship and immigration has increased. Facts. So why do people like him so much ? Because they like his admiration of Putin or Trump ? Or something else they have in common with him?
He is an Eton rich boy funded by questionable funders who help his PR and air time. Maybe it’s that that people feel connected to ?
Any other ideas?
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I don't think feeling a connection to politicians in that way is why people choose to vote for them. Or that it should be, anyway. Angela Rayner's, for example, life and background bears as little resemblance to mine as Farage's does. I don't think the idea that you should vote for people because they have similar life experiences to you either works or is possible.
 
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Pure River Slut said:
The thing that Farage campaigned for has caused economic hardship and immigration has increased. Facts. So why do people like him so much ? Because they like his admiration of Putin or Trump ? Or something else they have in common with him?
He is an Eton rich boy funded by questionable funders who help his PR and air time. Maybe it’s that that people feel connected to ?
Any other ideas?
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Populism is not about actually doing what it's proponents say they are going to do. It is about saying what people want to hear. When what they say doesn't happen they just blame external scapegoats for the failure to follow through. It really is as simple as that :emoticon-0102-bigsm
 
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The Norton Cat said:
I don't think feeling a connection to politicians in that way is why people choose to vote for them. Or that it should be, anyway. Angela Rayner's, for example, life and background bears as little resemblance to mine as Farage's does. I don't think the idea that you should vote for people because they have similar life experiences to you either works or is possible.
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I don’t see why so many cabinet members and leaders are from one expensive fee paying school or one wealth category like but interesting how he ‘ speaks for the people’ when he’s had throughly different experience than most.
 
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First law I would like to see Starmer enact is to make the publishing of lies and disinformation on Faecesbook et al libellous. :emoticon-0102-bigsm
 
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