Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v West Ham United

KingHotspur said:

The Chelsea second half exposed Ange’s tactics and for me he’s not recovered since.

Spurs badly need a win soon or like it or not, he will be under real pressure (rightly so imo)

Talking the talk is well and good but ultimately results are the thing which keeps managers in a job.

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I can't fathom this. Sacking Ange would set us back by another few years, his style is genuinely that unique. He's been dealt a really rough hand with injuries and suspensions and a transfer window that tbh wasn't ambitious enough and saw us lose our best player. Give the man time, a full strength team and a few transfer windows before making a judgement call. City's winless run is almost as long as ours but you don't see anyone saying Pep is under pressure.

We've been here before. We know half the squad just aren't good enough. Patience is key.

KingHotspur said:

The Chelsea second half exposed Ange’s tactics and for me he’s not recovered since.

Spurs badly need a win soon or like it or not, he will be under real pressure (rightly so imo)

Talking the talk is well and good but ultimately results are the thing which keeps managers in a job.

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I don’t think his job’s in any danger and I wouldn’t want it to be either. You’ve gotta give a manager time but I do want him to learn that the Premier League isn’t the SPL or anything else he’s managed in. This is a different beast of a league and you need to be able to be more tactically flexible at times. Moyes taught him a lesson today in how to view a half and then adapt/ change it up to counter your opponents.

He’s shown some real naivety over the last month or so, the Chelsea tactics as you say plus some really poor decision making with selections and subs that have massively cost us.

All in all though he needs key players back and Levy needs to get his cheque book out in January and following windows. We’ve seen what he can do with a fully fit side, so there’s lots of optimism for the future once he has that but equally he’s gotta show he’s not a one trick pony, because that will become predictable - as Moyes saw today.

OssiesGoingToWembley said:

Let’s still trust the long term process but I’m becoming doubtful.

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I spy a toon fan

Roo said:

no one could cope with the players we’ve got out, plus the temporary suspensions we’ve faced during this period. In general, the football this season is much better and we have belief, but it’s become apparent at just how much the drop in quality is beyond the first XI. We might be showing that we’re capable of playing to ange’s style with the squad players, but We’ve been unrecognisable in terms of quality and how clinical we appeared to be since we capitulated in the Chelsea game, bar a decent second half vs city. unfortunately it’s gonna take until players come back in the new year, or Daniel gets his wallet out in the January transfer window before we can be as positive as we were at the start of the season.
As I said a couple of weeks ago, morale needs to be managed. Thank **** we got a result against city to boost the players, because 4 defeats from 5 is bad enough.
And Newcastle next, which doesn’t fill me with any hope whatsoever.

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There's also the issue that if one of the starters is having a bad day at the office, there's few chances to fix it

Case in point, Bissouma was poor today and it was hardly the first time he's not played as well as he did in the early season, and given how important his role is to setting the pace of our transition from defence to attack if he has a bad game that has a knock-on effect to the players in front of him - yet apart from Bentancur (who won't be back until, what, February at the earliest?) nobody else can really set our pace in that role, while Hojbjerg and Skipp make the transitions more laboured

That's what's affecting our clinicality(?) in the opening 45 minutes against anyone in claret & blue we've faced lately, because if we had that little bit more of a snap in the transition we'd have that extra half second to catch opponents unawares, but if that lags by just a bit then we revert back to taking two or three touches where one would do or safety-first passing

(Coincidentally, this is why I am not against being linked with DMs who can set the tone of our transition ahead of January even if CBs are the most important thing we need to look for, and a few have bubbled up in recent weeks)

Some serious over reaction both on here and in the ground to be honest.

Before a ball was kicked this season most of us thought we'd be lucky to come top 10.

The idea that we'd be 5th in December was a joke.

Lots had given up their season ticket or membership and loads had stopped going cos we were sick of **** football.

The last 5 games have shown:
1. Ange is new to the league and to spurs...this was only his 16th match for us.
2. That we have a good first team and nothing else below that.
3. That we desperately needed a striker.
4. That Conte wanting Richarlison and Levy paying 60m for him was and is a massive mistake.
5. We need to get rid of lo Celso, Richarlison, Skipp, etc
6. That fans have very short memories

We have seen some great football and goals this season...we ain't and never were top 4 challengers...the first 10 games with a fit first 11 got people carried away.

remembercolinlee said:

Some serious over reaction both on here and in the ground to be honest.

Before a ball was kicked this season most of us thought we'd be lucky to come top 10.

The idea that we'd be 5th in December was a joke.

Lots had given up their season ticket or membership and loads had stopped going cos we were sick of **** football.

The last 5 games have shown:
1. Ange is new to the league and to spurs...this was only his 16th match for us.
2. That we have a good first team and nothing else below that.
3. That we desperately needed a striker.
4. That Conte wanting Richarlison and Levy paying 60m for him was and is a massive mistake.
5. We need to get rid of lo Celso, Richarlison, Skipp, etc
6. That fans have very short memories

We have seen some great football and goals this season...we ain't and never were top 4 challengers...the first 10 games with a fit first 11 got people carried away.

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I agree with some of your points but Spurs have lost 4 out of 5 games and lost 3 in a row at home to a struggling Chelsea, Villa and West Ham. My issue is that clubs have figured Ange out already and that he’s not capable of adapting.

Definitely needs to get rid of some of the dross and get in 4-5 new players but he also needs to improve his in game management. The club has lots of time between games this season yet it’s not really any showing any benefit

KingHotspur said:

I agree with some of your points but Spurs have lost 4 out of 5 games and lost 3 in a row at home to a struggling Chelsea, Villa and West Ham. My issue is that clubs have figured Ange out already and that he’s not capable of adapting.

Definitely needs to get rid of some of the dross and get in 4-5 new players but he also needs to improve his in game management. The club has lots of time between games this season yet it’s not really any showing any benefit

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I think the explanation is a lot simpler. Maddison.
He helps Spurs retain possession in threatening areas and is the main creative player. In the early ‘90s when Utd rose to prominence , Cantona was equally important. One player doesn’t make a team, but the absence of one player (without any viable replacement) can undermine a team.
Sport throws up these situations from time to time.
One player can be crucial to the whole structure holding together, Botham, Wilkinson etc

I know we have to take the rough with the smooth this season but losing to them was ****ing rough. We were so poor, West Ham played it perfect, stop us scoring from open play (which we never looked like doing) and then score two spawny goals.

horrible feeling on the train home which has only just left due to the stupid kick off time.

remembercolinlee said:

Some serious over reaction both on here and in the ground to be honest.

Before a ball was kicked this season most of us thought we'd be lucky to come top 10.

The idea that we'd be 5th in December was a joke.

Lots had given up their season ticket or membership and loads had stopped going cos we were sick of **** football.

The last 5 games have shown:
1. Ange is new to the league and to spurs...this was only his 16th match for us.
2. That we have a good first team and nothing else below that.
3. That we desperately needed a striker.
4. That Conte wanting Richarlison and Levy paying 60m for him was and is a massive mistake.
5. We need to get rid of lo Celso, Richarlison, Skipp, etc
6. That fans have very short memories

We have seen some great football and goals this season...we ain't and never were top 4 challengers...the first 10 games with a fit first 11 got people carried away.

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Big Ern said:

cos you'll never sing that?

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You mean from the 3 times we’ve sung it for the much better equivalent of what you won? You spawned your win mate, back to your caravan with you, solid 14th place incoming.

KingHotspur said:

I agree with some of your points but Spurs have lost 4 out of 5 games and lost 3 in a row at home to a struggling Chelsea, Villa and West Ham. My issue is that clubs have figured Ange out already and that he’s not capable of adapting.

Definitely needs to get rid of some of the dross and get in 4-5 new players but he also needs to improve his in game management. The club has lots of time between games this season yet it’s not really any showing any benefit

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They haven't though.
We imploded through ill discipline v Chelsea...they didn't suss us out.
Villa were lucky to not be 4 down ... bit like us v city.
Today was a piss poor performance by too many but again ...
Tonight we are with van De Ven (no replacement), Madison (no replacement) and Bentencur (no replacement)...in the the past 5 games we have been without;
Bentencur for 2 and a half,
Maddison for 4 and a half
Vdv for 4 and a half
Sarr for 2
Romero for 3 and a half
Bissouma for 2

Teams have capitalised on our injuries and suspensions. That's life I'm afraid.

remembercolinlee said:

They haven't though.
We imploded through ill discipline v Chelsea...they didn't suss us out.
Villa were lucky to not be 4 down ... bit like us v city.
Today was a piss poor performance by too many but again ...
Tonight we are with van De Ven (no replacement), Madison (no replacement) and Bentencur (no replacement)...in the the past 5 games we have been without;
Bentencur for 2 and a half,
Maddison for 4 and a half
Vdv for 4 and a half
Sarr for 2
Romero for 3 and a half
Bissouma for 2

Teams have capitalised on our injuries and suspensions. That's life I'm afraid.

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Time will tell, for me it’s not just a simple case of getting Maddison, Bentancur (didn’t play in the first games of the season anyway) and Van De Ven back and then all is good though.

Yes it’s more exciting than the fossil football served up by Jose, Nuno and Conte but the manager definitely needs to do better with some things.

Hopefully he’s learning from this tough run. Where we differ is I don’t think he will change anything and for me you can’t get away with that in the PL because it’s such a competitive league

KingHotspur said:

The Chelsea second half exposed Ange’s tactics and for me he’s not recovered since.

Spurs badly need a win soon or like it or not, he will be under real pressure (rightly so imo)

Talking the talk is well and good but ultimately results are the thing which keeps managers in a job.

Click to expand...

New manager has come in, playing lovely football and we're 5th in the league after 15 games... squad decimated with injuries and poor 2nd team to pick from... I think he's doing as best he can under the circumstances... if Romero & Udogie showed more discipline I wonder how much better we would have been last few matches if they had played... the Chelsea game completely took the wind out of our sails and we lost all momentum... It's not all bad if you look at the chances we create and as someone said in a previous post we need that bit of luck which just isn't happening at the moment. West Ham had the luck this evening but if we capitalised on the momentum we had in the first 20 minutes the game should have been out of sight!

Looks like the two ****test top half clubs will figure out who's the worst on Sunday gentlemen.

KingHotspur said:

Time will tell, for me it’s not just a simple case of getting Maddison, Bentancur (didn’t play in the first games of the season anyway) and Van De Ven back and then all is good though.

Yes it’s more exciting than the fossil football served up by Jose, Nuno and Conte but the manager definitely needs to do better with some things.

Hopefully he’s learning from this tough run. Where we differ is I don’t think he will change anything and for me you can’t get away with that in the PL because it’s such a competitive league

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1. I think that that Bentencur instead of Hoejberg, VDV instead of Davies and Maddison instead of lo Celso massively improves the team that played yesterday.

2. In the the last 5 games (4 losses and a draw) we have also been missing 3 other 1st choice starters in each game...apart from Chelsea where we had 9 men for an hour and and 2 serious injuries inside the first 40 minutes.
In those games we almost got a draw with Chelsea, lost in the last few, minutes v wolves, should have been out of sight v villa until cash kicked Bentencur out of the game, got lucky v City and were poor last night in the second half.

3. We've created but not taken chances in all our games ... 22 attempts yesterday but apart from the goal very few on target.

4. This shows that our style works imo but our squad depth isn't there.

5. Pochettino's first season was like this...a few steps forward and a couple backwards until he got his team fully balanced.

6. City currently, United mid 90s and Liverpool 1980s, Leeds 1970s, Chelsea early 2000s, arsenal late 1980s early 90s, united mid naughties, Liverpool under Klopp and Arsenal under Wenger all had one style of play and the only time they struggled is when the players were not up to scratch.

I ain't saying we will win trophies but we should be patient and let Ange have an opportunity to properly embed his plans and build his squad. He is new to the league...gardiola and klopp had poor first seasons ( especially gardiola considering the amount he spent and the players he had available to him) while they embedded their style and got the right players in.

Personally, I see huge progress on the past 4 years and 3 managers.

Yep all very disappointing and made worse by arriving home at 2:30 in the morning after a large smack on the M1! Oh and after also getting soaking wet on the walk in to the stadium as well. Lovely.

Totally agree with the comments that you can see Maddison is a massive loss to this team. Just need a decent back up to him after a cull of the midfield deadwood.

Moyes is a good manager though, and they enacted their game plan perfectly I thought. Not an attractive watch though and I'm not sure I'd pay every week to see it. Oh well, on to Sunday and hopefully a drama free travel down this time..

Must stay positive, must stay positive. Tough morning.

I can't understand those saying Moyes put out some sort of tactical masterclass to outwit Ange. That certainly isn't what I saw and judging by the comments on West Ham blogs and forums, they agree.

The only tactical tweak was getting his players to actually run a bit and play with more aggression. They were woeful in the first half - genuinely looked like a non league team, they were so far off the pace.

So the 'genius' got his players to run a bit more, which meant they spent a bit more time in our half, and then two huge slices of luck gifted them their goals. Neither goal was the product of any particular quality or skill. At least the goals against Wolves and Villa had some quality to them. Last night were two goals you'd rarely see at all, let alone both in the same game.

As usual for Spurs, when it rains it doesn't just pour; it pisses down on whatever parade we were celebrating from a great height. And as usual, it is fecking Chelsea at the heart of it.

We're just going to have to stumble along until the new year, the quality of the squad just isn't there although I am vaguely encouraged by the fact that multiple previously written off squad players like Hojbjerg, Gil and Lo Celso have still played a part in a number of dominant performances that just didn't get the results.

I sincerely hope we have our transfer targets lined up and ready to go for Jan 1st. None of the usual faffing about please, Daniel.

We need to add a CB and another top striker asap. Son is good but will always be a purple patch player. The rest just don't offer a high enough output. The fact that Romero is our third top goal scorer isn't something to be proud of.

A creative midfielder can wait, as I think having one of Maddison or Bentancur available gives us enough creativity.

I haven’t seen last nights game but having seen nearly every minute of our other games this season I can’t say that I think Ange has been worked out. The biggest issue we had pre-Chelsea was when teams didn’t press us so we had to grind them down a bit more, which we were managing to do.

It’s more a lack of depth and the combination of players we have out at the same time that’s flooring us. Take last night - you play PEH and Bissouma together to provide a bit more security when defending transitions. That’s fair enough, even if it does impact us in possession. But you don’t need to do that if you have Van der Ven, you could move Kulu back inside and have more creativity. Or if you have Bentancur or even Sarr fit to start alongside Bissouma then you have more security with less compromise on the in-possession side of the game. I think with Maddison fit you can even not be too blunt with Bissouma and PEH starting, but GLC isn’t as good a player so he doesn’t cover the creative imbalance as well.

My impression of last night is that we didn’t take our chances when we had them and fell to two unfortunate goals. I’m sure we’re also beginning to suffer as the players who have managed to stay available for most of the season so far - I’m thinking Porro, Sonny and Kulu, have not been rotated much if at all.

Outside the offside decision against Liverpool we haven’t had a lot of fortune in games and you can’t help but feel that we’re owed a questionable penalty or something soon. But you have to keep going and make your own luck. Ange knows this and won’t let any excuses slide in. I’m confident in the long term we’re going in the right direction even if this season so far has been full of highs and lows.

More you watch it the worse it gets, the one thing he’s meant to be good at and he’s not even that good at it. One thing for me as a Spurs fan is I hate watching terrible players, I have no time or patience for them. The likes of Winks, Doherty, Emerson and now him just makes my blood boil having to endure them. Pray the Saudi’s help us out in January and rid us of this waste of space. Give me Jamie Donley getting chances in the team any day over this lump of ****e.