Off Topic Politics Thread

Onionman said:

Yeah, god forbid anyone should provide weapons to help a democracy defend itself against an authoritarian dictator. **** 'em.

Nobody ever answers the question of what would happen if Russia was in the home counties today. All you get is deflection, avoidance and inane history lessons.

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What next for NATO after defeating Russia then Vin, in what is now quite clearly a proxy war between East and West? Time to crush China in the name of democracy? Or do we focus on annihilating Iran first? Because after all, every conflict, every injustice, and every act of oppression is NATO's business, even when no NATO member is directly involved.

The 'Russia in the Home Counties' scenario is meaningless on every level. There is simply no way to answer an abstract hypothesis that takes no account of history, geography or geo-politics.

Archers Road said:

What next for NATO after defeating Russia then Vin, in what is now quite clearly a proxy war between East and West? Time to crush China in the name of democracy? Or do we focus on annihilating Iran first? Because after all, every conflict, every injustice, and every act of oppression is NATO's business, even when no NATO member is directly involved.

The 'Russia in the Home Counties' scenario is meaningless on every level. There is simply no way to answer an abstract hypothesis that takes no account of history, geography or geo-politics.

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Russia invaded a sovereign country. The west didn’t. Russia has been ****ing with our politics for two decades. Russia has been assassinating its enemies on our sovereign territory.
There is no way to equate us with Russia that doesn’t look insane. Germany has ****ing loved Russia for 20 years and they are the ones sending the tanks. I think you have this on backwards.

It is only a proxy war because we can’t get involved directly. There is nothing underhand about this. Everything is very much up front.

Putin is a Crazy dictator and as **** as the West is, we need to firmly defend against his kind of crazy.

I just wish we were this supportive of the Palestinians. Wrong colour skin though I guess.

Onionman said:

Yeah, god forbid anyone should provide weapons to help a democracy defend itself against an authoritarian dictator. **** 'em.

Nobody ever answers the question of what would happen if Russia was in the home counties today. All you get is deflection, avoidance and inane history lessons.

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That’s because it’s stupid ‘whataboutism’.

If russia invaded England, then yes we should defend England and go to war, using as much force as possible.

The fact is they haven’t invaded England, so we need to be more measured in our response. (By ‘measured’ I mean trying to de-escalate.)

All the western politicians seem to be trying to do is escalate the situation, as far as I can see.

Archers Road said:

What next for NATO after defeating Russia then Vin, in what is now quite clearly a proxy war between East and West? Time to crush China in the name of democracy? Or do we focus on annihilating Iran first? Because after all, every conflict, every injustice, and every act of oppression is NATO's business, even when no NATO member is directly involved.

The 'Russia in the Home Counties' scenario is meaningless on every level. There is simply no way to answer an abstract hypothesis that takes no account of history, geography or geo-politics.

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I called it that you'd avoid the question. It's too brutal to answer and face that your view of Ukraine's right to defend itself is different from your own country's.

Russia invaded Ukraine. (Again, by the way. This is a SECOND invasion). That's it. The moment that happened democracies were right to step up and support Ukraine. The eat ignores Chechnya, Georgia and Ukraine part 1 and look how that all worked out in terms of keeping the peace.

Russia is being supplied with weapons by Iran. Does that mean Russia is now an Iranian proxy? Of course not.

The one good thing to come out of this whole horrible mess is that it's united the left in the UK with the MAGA conspiracy crowd. Common ground at last.

Onionman said:

I called it that you'd avoid the question. It's too brutal to answer and face that your view of Ukraine's right to defend itself is different from your own country's.

Russia invaded Ukraine. (Again, by the way. This is a SECOND invasion). That's it. The moment that happened democracies were right to step up and support Ukraine. The eat ignores Chechnya, Georgia and Ukraine part 1 and look how that all worked out in terms of keeping the peace.

Russia is being supplied with weapons by Iran. Does that mean Russia is now an Iranian proxy? Of course not.

The one good thing to come out of this whole horrible mess is that it's united the left in the UK with the MAGA conspiracy crowd. Common ground at last.

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I disagree. I think it’s just showing who has illusions of grandeur about war and wants to get us all killed in a nuclear war.

Absolutely no one is saying we should leave Ukraine all alone. Of course they can defend themselves. But we are not Ukrainian.

All anyone is saying is that we need to be extremely careful in what is a very terrifying and delicate situation, and at the moment our politicians seem to be very quick to try and escalate and whip into a frenzy.

I don’t want me and my family involved in a world war, to defend Ukraine. It’s quite simple. Anyone advocating escalation should be willing to die for their beliefs.

I didn't answer the China, etc question. If China invaded a democracy (like Taiwan) I'd be all for supplying weapons for that democracy to defend themselves. I value democracy.

Onionman said:

Yeah, god forbid anyone should provide weapons to help a democracy defend itself against an authoritarian dictator. **** 'em.

Nobody ever answers the question of what would happen if Russia was in the home counties today. All you get is deflection, avoidance and inane history lessons.

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I think football may be suspended, or at least played behind closed doors.

Libby said:

I just wish we were this supportive of the Palestinians. Wrong colour skin though I guess.

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While I agree there is a double standard the situation is more geopolitics than anything else. The reason Ukraine is supported and Palestine isn’t is not down to skin colour.

Israel is the Western Worlds foothold in the Middle East which allows them to get away with all kinds of abhorrent ****.

There is a moral deficit because Israel is an extremely important strategic asset.

Whereas supporting Ukraine is both morally right and strategically important with Russia being a tangible danger to Europe, which Israel is not.

Plus for all of those that worry about escalation, an aggressive Russia at the front door of Europe after crushing a sizeable Nation in Ukraine would be infinitely more dangerous for the future of humanity than equipping the Ukrainians.

Shandy_top_89 said:

While I agree there is a double standard the situation is more geopolitics than anything else.

Israel is the Western Worlds foothold in the Middle East which allows them to get away with all kinds of abhorrent ****.

There is a moral deficit because Israel is an extremely important strategic asset.

Whereas supporting Ukraine is both morally right and strategically important.

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Of course it's geopolitics. Our government doesn't give a **** about Ukraine's sovereignty, they care about Russia and their influence.

If Kazakhstan invaded Uzbekistan (for example) tomorrow then NATO certainly wouldn't be throwing billions at Uzbekistan.

I agree with supporting Ukraine btw but hearing us and the US talking about right n wrong is nauseating after some of our behaviours in recent times.

Libby said:

Of course it's geopolitics. Our government doesn't give a **** about Ukraine's sovereignty, they care about Russia and their influence.

If Kazakhstan invaded Uzbekistan (for example) tomorrow then NATO certainly wouldn't be throwing billions at Uzbekistan.

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That’s probably correct, but I don’t blame them for that attitude really. Russia is a threat to NATO states along with the rest of Europe and that is going to be the main priority. Probably the one thing I agree with this government on.

Shandy_top_89 said:

That’s probably correct, but I don’t blame them for that attitude really. Russia is a threat to us along with the rest of Europe and that is going to be the main priority. Probably the one thing I actually agree with this Government on.

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Well exactly, so this pretence that we're doing it to protect democracy is absolute nonsense as we're just playing the game.

I think this war has shown that Russia aren't the threat that was thought too tbf. In that respect the US have had some big wins come out of this conflict for them, they've seen the full might of the Russian military and their tactics without having to stick any boots on the ground.

Also have an environment for testing new weaponry/technology in a live conflict environment, again without having to risk any US personnel.

Russia are also burning through munitions and soldiers at a huge rate. Can't see that they'll be a threat to NATO states after this war at all.

Libby said:

Well exactly, so this pretence that we're doing it to protect democracy is absolute nonsense as we're just playing the game.

I think this war has shown that Russia aren't the threat that was thought too tbf. In that respect the US have had some big wins come out of this conflict for them, they've seen the full might of the Russian military and their tactics without having to stick any boots on the ground.

Also have an environment for testing new weaponry/technology in a live conflict environment, again without having to risk any US personnel.

Russia are also burning through munitions and soldiers at a huge rate. Can't see that they'll be a threat to NATO states after this war at all.

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I do wonder what exactly is going through Putins head, he probably knew they didn’t have the strength to walk through Ukraine and anticipated they would just stand aside.

Makes you wonder about the future of those ‘advisors’ who told him it would be a cake walk, either that or he really believes all of his own hot air.

Onionman said:

I didn't answer the China, etc question. If China invaded a democracy (like Taiwan) I'd be all for supplying weapons for that democracy to defend themselves. I value democracy.

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Do you value democracy so much that you are prepared to watch the whole world burn in order to secure it in every corner of the globe? Maybe we should still be in Afghanistan in then, creating more generations of traumatised ex-servicemen to discharge onto the streets of the U.K.

Archers Road said:

Do you value democracy so much that you are prepared to watch the whole world burn in order to secure it in every corner of the globe? Maybe we should still be in Afghanistan in then, creating more generations of traumatised ex-servicemen to discharge onto the streets of the U.K.

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I think Ukraine established a pattern of indirect engagement for these kind of conflicts.

I imagine if Taiwan was invaded you would see a similar pattern of supplying Taiwan with arms and humanitarian support, as well as cutting China out from the World economy.

I am not sure Taiwan could realistically stand up to China in the same way Ukraine has stood up to Russia though, there is a much greater power disparity there.

Shandy_top_89 said:

I do wonder what exactly is going through Putins head, he probably knew they didn’t have the strength to walk through Ukraine and anticipated they would just stand aside.

Makes you wonder about the future of those ‘advisors’ who told him it would be a cake walk, either that or he really believes all of his own hot air.

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I think he thought they could take Kiev early on and then install a puppet government which would agree to giving Russia the four oblasts giving them the land bridge to Crimea in exchange for a ceasefire.

I'm fascinated to see how this plays out in Russia once this is over and Putin has gone tbh. If it continues to go badly for them then I wouldn't be surprised to see some independence movements spring up around Russia, lead by Chechenya.

The Doomsday Clock has been brought down to 7 minutes from the end of the world, partly in response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the possibility of Putin introducing nuclear weapons into the conflict.

Not sure what's been posted on here, and I'm not really bringing much to the table - just venting my thoughts:

Doesn't Ukraine have one of the highest amount of oil or natural gas reserves in Europe? It could be an incentive for the west. Also, depressingly, this gives weapon manufacturers the perfect ground to test their latest weapons in preparation for future wars (I despise the way the world is run sometimes). Plus you've got companies like BlackRock who are investing heavily in to this war, it's strange to invest on bloodshed, so it's all about money.

I'm not a fan of Putin at all, and I hope Ukraine keep their sovereignty, but I hate the fact NATO are portrayed as hero's.
If it didn't benefit NATO they wouldn't get involved. To say the US isn't involved in the war already is delusional considering they've spent more money on it than Russia.
NATO has been pushing further east for decades despite an agreement when the Soviet Union collapsed, they're antagonists in this. When you've got crooks like Nancy Pelosi holding the Ukrainian flag it says it all.

Anyway, this is all a ramble but basically I don't think there is a good and bad in this. I just feel sorry for the Ukrainian civilians. Agree with Libby about Palestinians too. I guess the same could be said about Malaysians too or Afghan women. There's a lot of injustice in this world.

This is why I don't post much - my thoughts spill over and my posts digress one last thing; I wish people did more to help the world other that post comments!

thereisonlyoneno7 said:

I think football may be suspended, or at least played behind closed doors.

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But would we have to wear masks and practice social distancing?

Libby said:

I think he thought they could take Kiev early on and then install a puppet government which would agree to giving Russia the four oblasts giving them the land bridge to Crimea in exchange for a ceasefire.

I'm fascinated to see how this plays out in Russia once this is over and Putin has gone tbh. If it continues to go badly for them then I wouldn't be surprised to see some independence movements spring up around Russia, lead by Chechenya.

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Depends who follows him, I think the biggest worry is the possibility of Russia falling into some form of civil conflict. Having a nuclear power at war with itself is unknown territory and it may become something NATO can’t stay out of should one side become keen on the big red button.