WAR! What is it good for?

  • Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
  • Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!
Israel is difficult. Obviously should never have been created, but it's there now. Can't just "delete Israel" there are people in that land now who were born there that can't be blamed for what their ancestors did.

... doesn't help their cause though that they keep voting for people who make things worse and keep violating Palestinians more and more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Edelman
A few years ago I read the book "the great war for civilisation" by Robert Fisk. Its focused alot on the recent Middle East issues (last hundred years or so). Its a fascinating read. Highly recommended for those wanting to delve a bit deeper.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BobbyD and Spurlock
Blue and Yellow Potato said:
Israel is difficult. Obviously should never have been created, but it's there now. Can't just "delete Israel" there are people in that land now who were born there that can't be blamed for what their ancestors did.

... doesn't help their cause though that they keep voting for people who make things worse and keep violating Palestinians more and more.
Click to expand...

Nobody should be asking for the deletion of Israel.

But how about they comply with international law and follow the 60+ U.N Resolutions beginning with withdrawal from the occupied territories. That should be a non-negotiable in the same way Rissia's occupation of Ukraine is claimed to be.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Edelman, Archers Road, BobbyD and 4 others
Treble said:
Nobody should be asking for the deletion of Israel.

But how about they comply with international law and follow the 60+ U.N Resolutions beginning with withdrawal from the occupied territories. That should be a non-negotiable in the same way Rissia's occupation of Ukraine is claimed to be.
Click to expand...
I think you will find the UM is doing pretty much the same in both cases i.e. condemning the actions but taking no direct action , which they cannot anyway because they have no military force, and supplying humanitarian support .
 
Solid_Air 2 said:
I think you will find the UM is doing pretty much the same in both cases i.e. condemning the actions but taking no direct action , which they cannot anyway because they have no military force, and supplying humanitarian support .
Click to expand...

The U.N. is powerless. But should we the Western world not expect and call for Israel to be treated in the same way as Russia when both are breaking international laws in illegally occupying another people's land?

In short, I was talking about the West and the western media who are anything but the same in both cases.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spurlock, BobbyD, Milk.. and 1 other person
Btw in what fcking sense of a democratic and fair organisation do you have the nations of the world all having one vote but 5 of them have the power to veto the majority decision? And no one seems to think this is a bit fcked up? <doh>

The U.N. and its security council is a fcking joke.

And the funny thing is we call Russia the oligarchy. Fcking hypocrisy everywhere.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spurlock, BobbyD, Diego and 1 other person
Treble said:
The U.N. is powerless. But should we the Western world not expect and call for Israel to be treated in the same way as Russia when both are breaking international laws in illegally occupying another people's land?

In short, I was talking about the West and the western media who are anything but the same in both cases.
Click to expand...
well feel obliged to point out it was Syria , Lebanon and Jordan which invaded Israel and the fighting has never stopped since just waned then burst back into "life" again . The interference of the "powers" has pretty much ensured no settlement has been reached and these days looks further away than when Israel was led by "terrorists" .
 
Solid_Air 2 said:
well feel obliged to point out it was Syria , Lebanon and Jordan which invaded Israel and the fighting has never stopped since just waned then burst back into "life" again . The interference of the "powers" has pretty much ensured no settlement has been reached and these days looks further away than when Israel was led by "terrorists" .
Click to expand...

On the first point, not really. I'm talking about the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory and Israel did that when they attacked Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Even if Israel had gripe with other countries, they had no right to take over Palestinian territories. It's not that dissimilar to Russia having a gripe with the Eastern European NATO countries and deciding to take over territory in the Crimea... similarly claiming (like Israel) that it belongs to them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PINKIE
Treble said:
On the first point, not really. I'm talking about the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory and Israel did that when they attacked Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Even if Israel had gripe with other countries, they had no right to take over Palestinian territories. It's not that dissimilar to Russia having a gripe with the Eastern European NATO countries and deciding to take over territory in the Crimea... similarly claiming (like Israel) that it belongs to them.
Click to expand...
On the first point you reading of the 48 war is a bit weird
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war

I fully agree regarding the Israeli land grabs but you see this conflict from one side only
If you think the world powers make decisions based on morals you really need to give your head a wobble for example during the cold war the swopping of sides in the horn of africa and in the region we are discussing a number of arab states doing deals with Israel purely due to their fear of Iran .
 
Solid_Air 2 said:
On the first point you reading of the 48 war is a bit weird
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war

I fully agree regarding the Israeli land grabs but you see this conflict from one side only
If you think the world powers make decisions based on morals you really need to give your head a wobble for example during the cold war the swopping of sides in the horn of africa and in the region we are discussing a number of arab states doing deals with Israel purely due to their fear of Iran .
Click to expand...

Who mentioned the 48 war? Let's accept Israel came into being. I was talking about the 1967 so-called "pre-emptive" attack by Israel on its neighbours which is when it took over the Palestinian territories and the 60+ UN resolutions that followed <ok>

There is no sides mate, it's simple - illegal occupation ---> get the fck out. If that's your policy on Russia, then so it should be on Israel. The rest... all the crap about neighbouring countries is the deflection Israel likes to muddy the water with, and which mugs buy into. Ironically the same deflection Russia has been trying with Crimea for the past decade, which nobody is buying into... quelle fcking surprise!
 
  • Like
Reactions: BobbyD
Treble said:
Who mentioned the 48 war? Let's accept Israel came into being. I was talking about the 1967 so-called "pre-emptive" attack by Israel on its neighbours which is when it took over the Palestinian territories and the 60+ UN resolutions that followed <ok>

There is no sides mate, it's simple - illegal occupation ---> get the fck out. If that's your policy on Russia, then so it should be on Israel. The rest... all the crap about neighbouring countries is the deflection Israel likes to muddy the water with, and which mugs buy into. Ironically the same deflection Russia has been trying with Crimea for the past decade, which nobody is buying into... quelle fcking surprise!
Click to expand...
1. So you agree the original war was an invasion of Israel .
2. It didn't take over Palestinian territory it took over the Jordanian West Bank territory where lots of Palestinians lived .
3. No one seemed that bothered about Russian control of Crimea and areas in Donbass region bar a bit of hand wringing and mealy mouthed words .

again i have to say you have a strange idea of how geo political decisions are taken if you think equivalence exists in that world .
 
Solid_Air 2 said:
1. So you agree the original war was an invasion of Israel .
2. It didn't take over Palestinian territory it took over the Jordanian West Bank territory where lots of Palestinians lived .
3. No one seemed that bothered about Russian control of Crimea and areas in Donbass region bar a bit of hand wringing and mealy mouthed words .

again i have to say you have a strange idea of how geo political decisions are taken if you think equivalence exists in that world .
Click to expand...

What the fck are you on about? You're the only one talking about the original war or ANY war for that matter. It's got fck all to do with the illegal occupation of palestinian territory which happened in 1967... almost 20 years after the 48 war ffs <doh>

What exactly has anything you've posted got to to do with the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory mate?

And whilst we're at it, yeh nobody did fck all about Crimea but most of the western world came out and condemned it. And now Russia's started again the western world are doing something aren't they? A luxury not afforded to the Palestinians.
 
Treble said:
What the fck are you on about? You're the only one talking about the original war or ANY war for that matter. It's got fck all to do with the illegal occupation of palestinian territory which happened in 1967... almost 20 years after the 48 war ffs <doh>

What exactly has anything you've posted got to to do with the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory mate?

And whilst we're at it, yeh nobody did fck all about Crimea but most of the western world came out and condemned it. And now Russia's started again the western world are doing something aren't they? A luxury not afforded to the Palestinians.
Click to expand...
The Palestinians are ****ed i'm afraid as the US won the proxy war in the middle east and the Palestinians have pissed off most of their potential backers .
I know all about the land seizures i'm just been pointing out real life to you btw there is no doubt the 67 war was happening it just became a case of who would strike first .
PS Nethanyu makes Putin look cuddly but unfortunately the liberal Israel left is now just a rump .
 
Solid_Air 2 said:
The Palestinians are ****ed i'm afraid as the US won the proxy war in the middle east and the Palestinians have pissed off most of their potential backers .
I know all about the land seizures i'm just been pointing out real life to you btw there is no doubt the 67 war was happening it just became a case of who would strike first .
PS Nethanyu makes Putin look cuddly but unfortunately the liberal Israel left is now just a rump .
Click to expand...

They are fcked, no argument there. Unfortunately the Palestinian Authority the west backs are corrupt as fck. Maybe that's why the U.S. backs them. The alternative which is Hamas is labelled a terrorist organisation.

I've said it hundreds of times on here, Yitzak Rabin was the last glimmer of hope because there was someone who genuinely wanted to solve the problem.

But in the end I think Israel will never truly be free until the Palestinians are. Their destiny is tied to each other inextricably until then. And in the end, the outcome may not be decided by politics but by nature, because the population of haredi and arabs is growing much faster and is predicted to do so for the next 30 years. The impact it will have on demographics and the economy, which in turn will affect the politics of the country may mean that Israel will be forced into protecting itself by giving up on those territories.
 
Treble said:
They are fcked, no argument there. Unfortunately the Palestinian Authority the west backs are corrupt as fck. Maybe that's why the U.S. backs them. The alternative which is Hamas is labelled a terrorist organisation.

I've said it hundreds of times on here, Yitzak Rabin was the last glimmer of hope because there was someone who genuinely wanted to solve the problem.

But in the end I think Israel will never truly be free until the Palestinians are. Their destiny is tied to each other inextricably until then. And in the end, the outcome may not be decided by politics but by nature, because the population of haredi and arabs is growing much faster and is predicted to do so for the next 30 years. The impact it will have on demographics and the economy, which in turn will affect the politics of the country may mean that Israel will be forced into protecting itself by giving up on those territories.
Click to expand...
Yeah i referenced Rabin in one of my earlier posts the problem is a large percentage of Palestinians do not accept Israel has any right to exist and since some of the wars have been launched from what are now the occupied territories it will take not just a forward thinking Israeli leader but will need a true acceptance in the Arab world that the only road to peace is to accept Israeli right to exist . Personally i'm pessimistic as the longer this has gone on for the worst the Palestinian position has become with now little support apart from Iranian proxy forces which alienates the monied sunni states .

PS i'm in a lot of pain and am drugged up to the eyeballs so my views may be different tomorrow <laugh>
 
Solid_Air 2 said:
Yeah i referenced Rabin in one of my earlier posts the problem is a large percentage of Palestinians do not accept Israel has any right to exist and since some of the wars have been launched from what are now the occupied territories it will take not just a forward thinking Israeli leader but will need a true acceptance in the Arab world that the only road to peace is to accept Israeli right to exist . Personally i'm pessimistic as the longer this has gone on for the worst the Palestinian position has become with now little support apart from Iranian proxy forces which alienates the monied sunni states .

PS i'm in a lot of pain and am drugged up to the eyeballs so my views may be different tomorrow <laugh>
Click to expand...

That's unfair. The percentage of Palestinians and Israelis wanting a two state solution is the same. And it's fallen progressively, not because they don't want it but because they don't believe it's feasible anymore because the optimism has deteriorated over the past 15 years thanks to the expansion of Jewish settlements and the likes of Netanyahu and Trump.

And I'm not going over the wars thing with you again!

Support for the two-state solution declines from 46% among Palestinians and Israeli Jews six months ago to 43% for both sides today. This is the lowest level of support for this concept among the two publics during the past two years of the Pulse, the lowest in more than a decade, when a steady decline in support began, and the lowest in almost two decades of joint Palestinian-Israeli survey research. Still, fewer people on both sides support three possible alternatives to a two-state solution: one state with equal rights, one state without rights, and expulsion or “transfer.”

Half of the Palestinian and Israeli samples were presented with a peace package identical to the one we presented to them four times during the past two years. Only 37% of Palestinians (compared to 40% in December 2017) and 39% of Israeli Jews (compared to 35% six months ago) support a permanent peace agreement package, along with 82% of Israeli Arabs – typical of the high level support from Israeli Arabs in previous surveys. In total, 46% of Israelis support the detailed agreement. The peace package comprises: a de-militarized Palestinian state, an Israeli withdrawal to the Green Line with equal territorial exchange, family unification in Israel of 100,000 Palestinian refugees, West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall under Israeli sovereignty and the Muslim and Christian quarters and the al Haram al Sharif/Temple Mount under Palestinian sovereignty, and the end of the conflict and claims. Forty-eight percent of Israelis (54% of Israeli Jews) and 61% of Palestinians are opposed to this two-state comprehensive package.

A modified package, similar in every respect to the original one described above, was presented to the other half of the sample. The modified version included three additional components that previous research showed to provide positive incentives to both sides: Israeli and the future state of Palestine will be democratic; the bilateral agreement will be part of a regional agreement along the lines of the Arab Peace Initiative; and the US and major Arab countries will insure full implementation of the agreement by both sides. In comparison with support for the original package, the modified one received greater support from both sides: 45% of Israeli Jews and 42% of Palestinians, a 6-point and a 5-point increase respectively. Among Israeli Arabs, support rose to 91%.

The skepticism about the two packages appears closely related to serious doubts about feasibility. Palestinians and Israelis are both divided almost equally about whether a two-state solution is still possible, or whether settlements have expanded too much to make it viable. Among all Israelis, nearly half believes the solution is still viable (48%), while 45% think settlements have spread too much for it to be viable. While Israeli Arabs remain highly optimistic, with 64% thinking this solution remains viable, only 44% of Israeli Jews agree with this assessment. Among Palestinians, 56% say the two-state solution is no longer viable (a four-point decrease), while 39% think it is. But fully 72% and 81% of Palestinians and Israeli Jews, respectively, do not expect a Palestinian state to be established in the next five years.

Seeing as you are drugged up atm, maybe read all that later :bandit:
 
20 years after you claim that prisoners of war are actually "illegal combatants" and aren't protected by the Geneva Convention, some bigger **** comes along and does the same with your citizens....

I mean who knew, eh?

You must log in or register to see images


#morehypocrisy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back