That isn't actually what happened as I've described. There wasn't an unstoppable tide of thousands ... ... new arrivals found the time to move sideways and push other people forward. You can clearly see that on the video, people are crushed all along the front.
That's because you described it incorrectly. I'm trying to help your understanding here. You are wrong, but evidently you want to persist in your comfortable ignorance. So be it. Try reading the Taylor Report; it explains all the dynamics that those entering in the rear had no idea of those being crushed in the pens in front. Even the police (eventually) admitted that the normal procedure was to divert fans into outer pens when the inner pens filled. That's why they had procedures. They knew precisely what would happen if fans were allowed to go unchecked into already full inner pens, regardless of whether they were drunk, ticketless, Scouse or Mackems. They also knew that the fans at the back would have no idea of what was happening in the enclosed pens. But anyway, you'll be pleased to know that I'm done here. If you really want the facts you can find them. They won't be in the Sun or alt-right websites though.
I've read both reports from start to finish, no ignorance here just an opinion you don't like. On the video two things are obvious. Firstly ... new arrivals, after the gates were opened, move along the terraces and push people forward. Secondly ... people are actually able to turn around and exit that section when they see it's full. It's all there, take a look.
Sounds like they should have contacted you and asked you to hold the enquiry given that you seemingly know more about what happened, the role that the fans played, more so than the fans that were there in addition to to those that read and heard every bit of evidence as they held the enquiry. You've said you are reluctant and won't go into details etc and yet t rather than stepping away here you are a few posts on from that giving more and more of your opinion. An opinion that the enquiry completely disagrees despite they having dissected every piece of evidence including call footage. I was at York when we were getting crushed and our fans had to climb out of the away end to escape. Thankfully they were able to do so. Was that my fault for correctly entering the away end or the fault of our other fans who correctly entered the end also? You mention the that the families should accept the lawful verdict and yet you disagree with the findings of the enquiry that found the fans innocent of any blame. You appear somehow to know better than the enquiry seeing as you proclaim some fans to be 'every bit as guilty as anyone else'. Additionally given the record of that particular constabulary, aside from the findings of the enquiry, I'm staggered at the position that you take against the fans. You sure that it isn't an issue that you might have with that club or their supporters in general that is clouding your judgement? Would you feel the same if it had happened to us?
Everything I've said can clearly be seen on the video, why not take a look before you have a pop? I was at York, Cardiff and all of our other crushes where gates have been pushed in, etc. The fact that we've been rowdy and idiotic doesn't automatically excuse every Liverpool supporter at Hillsborough. Anyway, look at the video and tell me why I'm wrong.
There is an old expression 'The truth will out'. We now live in an age where this is no longer the case. We have a usa president who tells whoppers every day and gets away with it. We have a pm who makes promises and denies all responsibility when they arent ( and couldnt be kept ) . Integrity, alas, is no longer a trait expected or even respected in society. Hillsborough was a tragedy for those who lost friends and family ..at a football game ffs. Some of these families want to blame it all on something or someone, and they wont rest till that happens. I suppose I can empathize but I wouldnt hold my breath. Easy to say 'let it go' when none of your nearest and dearest were victims. But that is the selfish age we live in. Thanks a bunch reality tv. This whole tragedy will remain an open wound for many years to come sadly.
As tragedies often do when the victims are unable to justify or apportion blame. There were many contributing factors to the event and to solely lay the blame on one individual would have been another tragedy unto itself.
Having read the thread on RTG about this I've come to a couple of conclusions. a) Duckenfield had, quite clearly, been 'fast tracked'. He was a Chief Superintendent at only 30 years old, with very little experience of 'real' policing and had replaced another with much more experience only 21 days before the disaster. FFS he didn't even know the names of the two teams (so wasn't a football fan) and omitted any mention of crowd safety in his (unusually) lengthy briefing, prior to the game. b) The events on the day were indeed tragic BUT the attempts to 'cover up' the incompetence of certain individuals should, even now, lead to prosecutions - lying under oath is a criminal offence - plus, I would include in that the idiots who decided Duckenfield was suitable material for the rank they gave him. This video is well worth a watch imho. I learnt a lot that I'd previously been unaware of.
Sorry mate, you are wrong! Moving sideways wasn't an option, as the pens, constructed in 1985, were encased by 6ft high spiked fencing, as this video clearly shows, from 19.34 onwards, where your specific point is rebuffed. Also, I thought the part from 54' onwards to be where the cover up began,. where police officers were told not to put anything in their pocket books, by a Chief Inspector, because what had happened would be covered in the Disaster Log. Then again at 30.00 I found particularly interesting, with a former police officer showing proof of the way in which his statement (about the events) had been changed.
I'm not talking about people moving between the pens. What actuall happened is that people coming through the tunnel, and onto the central walkway, squeezed onto the terraces. Once there they nudged the people in front of them, you can clearly see that happening. This was repeated, over a period of time, and the pressure on those at the front gradually increased. While this was happening some people can be seen coming down the walkway then turning back. It wasn't the unstoppable surge of people, down the central walkway, that's often suggested.
Nobody (as far as I'm aware) is suggesting that the late surge didn't contribute to the tragedy, but where else could they have gone, once they went down the tunnel?. My point was that supporters didn't have the ability to move sideways, as they would have, normally, had in other grounds (just think of Roker) at that time, because of the 'pens', which weren't a normal feature of grounds.
Isn’t the be all and end all that the gates should never have been opened? Turnstiles at major events exist for a single reason, and that is to prevent there being a surge of people. Had the police stood tall, and simply followed the standard practice, then the couple of thousand or whatever Liverpool fans who arrived late May have missed a few minutes but that would have been long forgotten. Ive a good few pals from that part of the world, not all Liverpool fans but even some I know on the blue side were badly affected. It was a disaster waiting to happen and had it not happened at Hillsborough it would have happened somewhere else. The stadia we had at that time was not fit, it stagers me that some Italian clubs still have metal fencing to this day. The police, and I am not a hater of police, indeed I believe they just a great job given the absolute **** show of budget cuts and staffing issues they’ve had handed to them by the imbeciles running our country, well they fell short by not asserting command and taking the ‘you’re late, you’ll wait’ stance that would normally happen. Stadium gates are not to be opened at the start of a game, that’s still true now in modern, safe stadia with room between gate and stands. Did the Liverpool fans running in help? Course not. But they shouldn’t have had the option or opportunity to do so and it was the job of South Yorkshire police to prevent that. 96 people died. Folk will never rest on it.
This is the BBC article about that. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7992845.stm Unfrotunately the bloke who'd done it the years previous transferred just a few weeks earlier (some claim it was due to a police prank earlier in year and some say he wanted to further his career). If he had stayed in his post then how different could have been but then would it have just happened another year when he wasn't there? Regardless of experience, how could they not see what was going on and order that the middle entrance be blocked off? This is John Motson at 2:46pm and it was obvious the sides were emptier yet nobody had the sense to block off that middle tunnel before opening Gate C? Anyone who went to games like that back then will know the clamour to get in and if anything it was all part of the 'thrill' being packed out and the hustle and bustle. How many times have people mentioned Roker Park being like that? Sadly Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen and given what happening in 1981 to Spurs fans (I didn't know this until now) then it's baffling how it was still happening 8 years later. They didn't even have pens back then so fans could spread out sideways but if there was pens then it probably would have resulted in deaths. Some may blame the Liverpool fans yet it could quite have easily been the Spurs fans 8 years earlier or any other fans so would those fans be to blame in the same way Liverpool fans are being vilified? The fact is, it could have been us as we all know fine well what it was like back then in big games but to get 1,000's of people in via such a bottleneck was making it even worse. Liverpool played Forest the year before at Hillsborough in the semi final so did they open the gates then? If they did then how many ticketless fans would have went in the hope of 'sneaking' in? It's not just Liverpool fans who would do this as all clubs have fans who go to games in the hope of getting a ticket or getting in somehow. Opening up the gates simply allowed the fans another way in and the most obvious entrance was that tunnel. No fans at the back would have known how packed it was at the time once they got through the gates and they'd just be moving along with the crowd trying to get to the tunnel and through it and many did get into the pens. @Reiver I'm baffled at some of the stuff your saying to be honest but one thing I'd like to mention is you saying these fans are the ones who helped crush the ones at the front. In that first video above there's a lass with 2 other people who were outside the gates until the opened them. She got out the fence gate at the front after the crush but the 2 people she came with didn't make it! Looking at the fact that even John Motson was pointing out the fullness of the centre pens and emptyness in the sides before kickoff and the fact they opened the gates with 8 mins before kickoff then you've got to wonder why they let the fans all pile in through the centre tunnel after opening the gates. It doesn't take much sense to know which way a crowd of fans will head given the obvious 'single' entrance as the side were just a small tiny sign (as shown in that 1st video). Imagine if they'd simply blocked that off the tunnel first and then opened the gates so they had no option but to go round the side.
At the Sunderland semifinal I was behind the goal and when Arsenal nearly scored there was a huge surge forward and lots of fans fell over...very few barriers iirc. Imho the ground was very unsafe...design very poor...I have not been in that part of the ground where the tragedy happened.
The late surge didn't help but the earlier people, pushing onto already packed terraces, didn't help either. The 'trap' had been set by the time the gate was opened. You can see new arrivals 'creating space' by nudging people further down to the front. You can clearly see this happening on the video. And you can also see people, after 2.30, coming through the tunnel and turning back. Others chose to force their way onto the terraces.
I can't help but wonder what would have happened in March '64 if Roker had terracing pens, similar to those at Hillsborough. 96? I think it would have been many, many more - particularly in the Fulwell (and where was that night), which only had one way up, iirc.
That's because there will have been a steady flow of fans coming through via the limited turnstiles so the tunnel won't have been as full of people wanting to get in. Once the outer gates were opened at 2:52pm when the pens were even fuller then there's very little option of getting back out when there's a mass of bodies coming down the tunnel plus given they won't want to miss kick off either. A barrier also gave way in pen 3 and therefore cause people to go forward and also crush those in front. Also when they go forward it wouldn't take long for the gap to be filled behind them so no option of pushing back with that many bodies up against them. Another link https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19545126 The tunnel led directly into the two pens behind the goal, pens 3 and 4. Access to other pens was poorly-marked - a sign for refreshments was bigger than one showing the way to pens 1 and 2, the inquests heard. About 2,000 fans then made their way into the ground. Most of those entering through Gate C headed straight for the tunnel leading directly to pens 3 and 4. This influx caused severe crushing in the pens. Fans began climbing over side fences into the relatively less packed adjoining pens to escape. The pens' official combined capacity was 2,200. It was later discovered this had not been updated since 1979, despite modifications made to the ground in the intervening decade. At 14.59, the game kicked off. Fans in the two central pens were pressed up against the fences and crush barriers. One barrier in pen 3 gave way, causing people to fall on top of each other. In my opinion it could have been any set of fans and again I'll point back to the fact it happened in 1981 to Spurs fans but thankfully there were no dividing pens and the fans got over the top of the fence before it got too bad though some did get injured. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-27614689 On that occasion 38 supporters suffered injuries including broken arms, a broken leg and stitches. The terraces were divided into three pens in the months following the 1981 match. Christina Lambert QC, counsel for the inquests, said that immediately before the 1981 cup tie there was congestion at the Leppings Lane turnstiles. Mr Malkin confirmed that Gate C at the turnstiles was opened to alleviate the congestion and a number of fans entered. He said it was "likely" that the "focus of the crush" in 1981 was in "a rather different position" to the 1989 incident. Two perimeter gates were opened to let fans out. Between 100 and 250 fans were estimated to have moved out of the terrace following the 1981 crush, the jury was told. Following the match, it emerged that the stipulated capacity may have been exceeded by 335. Look at how stowed off it was in 1986-87 for the Leeds fans the next time a Semi Final was played at Hillsborough. Compare the fans in the other stand & corner to the sea of heads behind the goal that is surging. The same thing happened the season after in 1988 with Liverpool fans but this time they blocked the tunnel entrance for 10 minutes to stop fans going in. More info about that here and with hindsight it was a disaster waiting to happen if fans weren't directed into the stands properly! Like I said before, it could have been us a few years later in 1992! https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/hillsborough-inquest-hears-crush-1987-11159392 The inquest into the Hillsborough tragedy has been told that a crush happened in the terraces at Coventry City’s FA Cup semi-final at the same stadium two years earlier. The incident happened in 1987 during the clash with Leeds United, whose fans had been allocated the Leppings Lane end of the stadium where 96 Liverpool supporters died in 1989. The inquest heard how Leeds supporters had to go through 23 turnstiles to get into the ground. Fans reported how there was a press of people outside the turnstiles and within the terraces but, fortunately, there were no significant injuries. A year later South Yorkshire Police closed the tunnel to the central pen for ten minutes but this did not happen during the Liverpool v Nottingham Forest game in 1989 when 96 people died. The closure of the tunnel - with fans directed to side pens - was known as a potential tactic to some officers but other senior officers said they had never known it be deployed, including the 1988 overall match commander, Chief Supt Brian Mole. A sergeant on duty in 1988 told the jury that blocking the tunnel was not mentioned in debriefing because it was nothing out of the ordinary. Coroner Sir John Goldring told the jury: “You will no doubt wish to consider whether or not it was appropriate for those responsible for drafting the 1989 order to follow the earlier approach.” He later added: “Members of the jury, the suggestion being made on behalf of the families is that, in reality, the police got away with it in 1988.” According to evidence heard by the jury at the new inquest, the police plans for the 1989 FA Cup semi-final were similar to the 1988 plans.
The gates needed opening due to the chaos and eventual crushing going on outside which is caused by limited turnstiles for 1,000's of fans that would never have allowed them all in before kick off anyway. The gate was also opened in 1981 but I haven't looked to see if this happened in 87 or 88. You can even see the crowd outside the ground move backwards at 22:52 (14:34:54 timestamp) as they must have pushed back themselves to relieve the front. Keep watching and you can see at 22:09 (14:40:50 timestamp) that the same area is now packed out with fans 6 minutes later and again a little while later. As I mentioned, John Motson pointed out how full the pens were and I've now seen this was at 2:46pm (some of timeline below) so a good 5 minutes before the gate was even opened. – 2.40pm: The police control box is experiencing problems with radios but a communications officer is working to fix the issue. Outside the turnstiles on Leppings Lane, fans are beginning to get crushed and a young boy is carried above the heads of the crowd to safety. – 2.43pm: A request is made for a traffic vehicle with a Tannoy system to go to the Leppings Lane end. The operator in the police control box says: “We have a large crowd at that location and they are causing crushing at the gates.” – 2.46pm: Commentator John Motson comments there are spaces at the side of the terraces at the Liverpool end of the ground. – 2.47pm: Mr Marshall sends one of three radio messages to police control to ask for permission to open the exit gates to prevent injury at the turnstiles. – 2.48pm: Exit gate C at the Leppings Lane turnstiles is opened for a short period to eject a fan. Between 100 and 150 fans go in before it is closed again. – 2.51pm: Radio recordings capture a conversation from the police headquarters at Snig Hill. One man says: “Bloody chaos at Leppings Lane, thousands can’t get in. They’ve just broken gates down and Superintendent Marshall is screaming for them to open inner gates to let people in and Murray is saying in control we’ve got to monitor tickets, if we get Liverpool mixed up with Nottingham Forest we’re going to have trouble.” Someone can be heard saying “Seriously open the gates, open the gates to the Lepping…” over the radio. – 2.52pm: Following an order from Duckenfield, gate C is opened for a second time and remains open for a longer period. This comes after a final radio request from Mr Marshall warns of a risk of death outside. More than 2,000 fans come through the gate, many making their way down the tunnel, which is straight ahead of them, and into pens three and four of the Leppings Lane terrace. – 2.54pm: Video footage shows 27 of the 96 victims of the disaster in pen three at this time. Some of these, such as Thomas Howard, 39, and his son Thomas Howard Junior 14, had entered the ground through exit gate C. Others had been in the ground longer, such as David Steven Brown, 25, who went through the turnstiles at 2.11pm. Why open the gates over 5 minutes after it was clear (John Motson video) the centre pens were getting stowed off with the tunnel entrance still open yet there was plenty space either side? Watch this clip again to see where the command post was and just how full the centre pens where and how even John Motson noticed this. In hindsight it's ****ing obvious what one thing should have happened and that was to block access to the tunnel BEFORE opening the outer gate. Given the position of the command room then how did Duckenfield (or anyone else in there) not see this also along with the monitors they had? Aye some will say the fans are to blame for the pushing etc but this could have been any set of fans and it's not as if they surged in through the gate and straight down the tunnel pushing forward whoever was in their way. In the next video below, I can't see the Liverpool fans running in as you say in your post @Nads but rather just moving as you'd expect any crowd of fans when a gate is opened as it relieved the crush outside. Here is some of the video of the gate opening. Even when they get through the gate they are quite spread out and certainly not running through the gates towards the tunnel entrance. If you keep watching the lass (who lost her 2 companions) even mentions that there was space once through the gates. If you keep watching the camera goes through the gates and you can see the one and only obvious way to get into the stand and then the tiny little sign on the right that says STANDING with an arrow on it. What ****ing use is that? This is the size of the area but also as you can see, the place most will end up going is towards that tunnel. The side entrance is to the right of the stairs as you've seen in the video above. please log in to view this image I think it was a mixture of a few things going way back to 1981 as the signs had been there in previous years and if it hadn't happened in '89 then it could well have happened to us in '92. It's not the fans who are to blame as this is normal crowd behaviour for the time in my opinion given most naturally went down the one tunnel entrance they could see. If it had been blocked then it may not have ended up the way it did with over twice as many in pen 3 which is where many died and the barrier collapsing will have also contributed greatly to this as people lost their footing. Some may think it was 1,000's piling in yet some of those who came in the gate ended up dying. Your only looking at a few hundred people taken away from pens 3 & 4, who could have easily been diverted to the side, as it could probably have got away with a 1,000ish. According to John Cutlack, an expert stadium engineer, the seeds of the 1989 disaster were sown 10 years previously when a safety certificate overestimated the capacity of the Leppings Lane standing area at 7,200. He said the true safe figure was in fact 5,425. Pen three, where many Liverpool fans died, could only safely hold 678 fans but on the day of the disaster there were up to 1,430 people inside.
Inexperienced copper made the biggest of right cock ups during a perfect storm of circumstances. I obviously will never fully grasp the emotions and the need to blame someone for the families, and I understand that doing him for manslaughter might appease them to some extent. However knowing that he is to blame and doing him for manslaughter are two totally different things. Anybody involved in the cover up in order to deflect the blame should be punished mind.
What I'm asking people to consider is that the 'last minute surge', when the gate opened, can't be the only cause. If it was, the deaths would be at the front of the walkway from the tunnel when 'the unstoppable tide of people surged in' . Instead the deaths occurred all along the front of the terraces. That must mean it was people behind them gradually pushing down and increasing the pressure. You can clearly see that was the case well before the gate was opened. In the video you provided we arrive at 1 minute to 3pm. At that point, 29.15 minutes, the man says 'there was a surge from behind and I was pushed against the barrier'. There were no barriers on the walkway so it could only have come from people on the terrace. As I've said you can clearly see people using that 'technique' to shift people down a step and claim the place.
