Some unelected bloke in the US seems to think he can influence our diplomatic appointments. Farage must be outraged.
Ellers, I don't remember you saying anything like this (the last sentence) before - although I might have forgotten. Does that mean you would be OK with the UK staying in the single market and "freedom of movement" to the UK for EU citizens then?
It doesn't matter any more. Whatever the outcome of the court decision is - at whatever level it gets made - we'll still be in the era of post-truth that allows the losing side to claim it was a stitch-up and provide "proof" for their point of view. When you don't draft these things properly or plan for more than one outcome (and we only had two to think about!) then expect a mess at some point. For example - just to use the "was it a binding referendum or not" question... The government now says it was because they (the government) said so several times after the bill for the referendum was passed and the discussion process was in full swing. Some say the wording of the bill is the bit that counts (saying it was not binding) as that was what Parliament voted on, not what the government said afterwards. That they had no right to say that because it was not what Parliament voted for. Some say the official position of the government (Cameron and his pals manifesto in 2015 and, presumably, the basis on which they were elected) was to stay in the EU. So, to swap out all the people in the government after the referendum and change tack to leave the EU is not continuing with their mandate and the democratic way to change the government and its position on the EU would be to hold an election. See? It's never going to end if people don't want it to. Me? I'm sick of all of it right now.
Go back to the begining of the thread (if you can be bothered). I have a house in France. I spend 3 months of the year in France. Next year I shall be working there along with other Europeans. I don't have a problem with Europe I just have a problem with the EU and all the bureaucracy the cr2p laws and regulations, the red tape and meaninless bile they spit out which actually causes divisions. The weakening of defences and wanting a Euro army yet does nothing when Russia threatens neighbouring states and would do nothing if Russia invaded an EU country. I voted Brexit because the EU was not forward thinking and because they were controlling too much of our country. I don't need to spell it out as we have all seen the upset the EU has caused with its stupid rules. My hope is that with us leaving the EU and other countries following suit that a new better working relationship will be formed. This is what I see happening. Regarding the 'freedom of movement'. This will always be a hard one for me as I have not been affected by it (directly). But I know of someone who was pushed out of his job because they brought in cheaper foreign labour. You can say well that's business but it didn't help him, his wife and two kids just before a christmas. I have also heard many people up north complaining that there are too many eastern Europeans taking their jobs. I don't live where they live or have lost my job to cheaper labour so I cannot comment on how they feel. There needs to be some sort of answer but I don't have it. I have heard what has been said about 'single market' and 'freedom of movement' . You cant have one without the other? Just wait when it comes to the deals. As Goldhawk said in his post about the German Car companies. As if they are going to lose their deal with the UK because we don't want to let in a few 'Latvians'. (And that is nothing against Latvians). It aint happening. The money will talk and we will get what we want. People need to realise we are the 5th biggest economy and Germany/France are not going to want to lose us as a trading partner. I don't have the answers or like the rest of you have some crystal ball but I am old enough to have seen and watched enough to know that it all comes down to money.
I knew you were a Europhile but not a supporter of the EU. I just wondered if you would accept a Brexit that included "freedom of movement" and staying in the single market. I guess what you're saying is you don't think that we'll have to accept total freedom of movement or total single market membership because we'll successfully do some horse trading and cut an individual deal. Time will tell. I agree with you, it's always come down to money. The question is whose money and who gets to keep it... Oh well, the match starts in an hour or so!
I know Ubes likes him, and I like Ubes so I try to get it, but Peter Hitchens just doesn't get what his big brother did, that being a contrarian involves having some light and shade. He's just been reviewing the papers on the radio and the only positives he had were for Richard Nixon and a call to reduce 'oppression' of Christians (in the U.K.). Castro - 100% monster, support for sport - kills individual achievement, punk - a marketing exercise etc etc. Meanwhile May has a big interview in the Sunday Times, which is pure fluff, and poses for the fashion section (cringe). The 'just about managing' Hartlepool patriots will be delighted to learn that the (leather!) trousers, jumper and pumps she chose cost over £1700.
An excellent post Ellers, it seems the 'Remainers' think everyone who voted to leave are racist xenophobes when many take the measured view that we are a very diverse and strong economy who basically underpin the EU when their laws and directives have massive negative impacts outside London. They need us more than we need them and all the 'posturing' going on at the moment is mere 'foreplay' to us getting the deal we want, as you say 'money talks'...
I voted Remain and I don't think everyone who voted Leave is a racist xenophobe. I don't class myself as a 'Remainer', either. That's just the advice I gave the government in the referendum. I don't feel like I became part of a movement or club. I think that applies to most people.
Comforted to hear it, BD, largely for your own sake since Tony Blair seems to have made himself chairman of the "Second referendum" movement and not many want to be associated with him for a diversity of reasons. The UK has to move forward and get the best deal possible. At the moment, there's brinkmanship and grandstanding, mostly from the EU. The pompous Eurocrats may well be about to have their legs cut from under them. 50/50 that Austria will elect a far-right leader imminently. Renzi may be out on his ear in Italy, leading to eu-sceptic factions coming in and wanting out of the euro. Then there are the uncertainties in France and Marine Le Pen. With problems like these, Brussels may lose some of its "us and them" attitude to the UK, and possibly think about compromising on freedom of movement of people. 2017 may be more interesting than 2016...
Totally agree Goldhawk. The Eurocrats are in for a shock. Europe is changing and the EU has not helped. I expect The Italian vote on the 5th Dec to be another kick in the teeth for the EU. The worst thing the remain camp can do is bring out Blair. Looked what happened in the refferendum when he showed his pug face? The bloke is finished and should @@@@ off. The bloke is a war criminal and sent our brave men and woman into a war ill-equipped then lied about it.
I think I just heard Michael Fallon, apparently our Defence Secretary, saying that we don't want to show our cards in the Brexit negotiation until we find out what the individual EU countries want. Beg pardon? So that either means the Government thinks that the EU will cheerfully list its negotiation objectives while the British sit mute, hardly likely in the adversarial process we have set up, or that we will shape our objectives based on what they want i.e. we don't know what we want yet. He is spending his day starting the process of negotiating a defence treaty with Poland.
That's what Ellers was implying by saying that if there was an opt in EU passport those opting in would have to pay more UK tax. Just to punish them or put them off applying I suppose. Though if you have dual citizenship with the US but don't live there, they can tax you on certain income. Which is why Boris Johnson claimed he was going to give up his US passport.
The EU is far from cheerfully listing its negotiating objectives, as David Davies found out last week when the EU negotiators refused to discuss anything until Article 50 is triggered.
The problem with all these negotiations is I think we do have a bit of a weak team. If David Davies follows form he will resign during the opening meeting. Fallon will flaff about and May will just say "Brexit means Brexit".
So they are playing exactly the same game as the government. Odds on when they finally sit around the table they will be at different ends of the spectrum -UK thinking it is negotiating the 'best possible' trade deal, EU the cleanest U.K. exit.
