Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Bayer Leverkusen

["Thanks for that Brian"]

So what happened to them in the first half and why could they only manage a draw on home ground. Football is about momentum and once started it can be difficult to reverse, that's why it often takes the break in play to switch things around. Spurs are at least as capable as Bayer, at least, and if the the halves had been reversed it could have been Spurs in the second half. This happens all the time in football. It;s how lesser teams get results against 'better' sides. In order to have the kind of control you are talking about we need to be have everything in our favour and long journeys to away games is not a plus point. Our results are more to do with age and experience than skill levels.

It seems to be beyond the England national team and most of our club sides to just hold the ball and take some of the sting out of a game. I get that games ebb and flow and we will have to defend for periods but after half time, our passing and ball control completely disappeared. For about 30 minutes we couldn't do the even basics, at all. It was like watching England in the Iceland game this summer. I'm not sure taking Janssen off was the best move and having been very keen to see him come on, Mousa's passing was shockingly awful.

I've not seen us be that bad in a domestic game for a while, yet we do it regularly in the second half of European away games and have done for a few seasons. Despite European experience and having some very good passers of the ball, we collectively lose our cool. Very often, it's when we're ahead or have been in charge of the game up to the 'collapse'. Away in Monaco in the EL last season comes to mind as does the away game at Inter, again in the EL.

It would help us massively if we could develop the ability to slow things down a bit and be difficult to get through. Chasing around at 100 mph for 90 minutes is hard work and yesterday's exertions will affect us on Saturday. We did it pretty well against Citeh but in Europe we are just found wanting when teams find some form in a game. I don't know why.

 

[Spurf]

It seems to be beyond the England national team and most of our club sides to just hold the ball and take some of the sting out of a game. I get that games ebb and flow and we will have to defend for periods but after half time, our passing and ball control completely disappeared. For about 30 minutes we couldn't do the even basics, at all. It was like watching England in the Iceland game this summer. I'm not sure taking Janssen off was the best move and having been very keen to see him come on, Mousa's passing was shockingly awful.

I've not seen us be that bad in a domestic game for a while, yet we do it regularly in the second half of European away games and have done for a few seasons. Despite European experience and having some very good passers of the ball, we collectively lose our cool. Very often, it's when we're ahead or have been in charge of the game up to the 'collapse'. Away in Monaco in the EL last season comes to mind as does the away game at Inter, again in the EL.

It would help us massively if we could develop the ability to slow things down a bit and be difficult to get through. Chasing around at 100 mph for 90 minutes is hard work and yesterday's exertions will affect us on Saturday. We did it pretty well against Citeh but in Europe we are just found wanting when teams find some form in a game. I don't know why.

Maybe peoples expectations are just too high. We are playing against top professional sides in an unusual environment. As I said before at this elite level the smallest details matter (that's why MP is such a good manager IMO) but even our famous team of the sixties often struggled in Europe. Having said that we are not doing badly are we? Very much in contention to progress to the knock out stages the last 16 of the elite competition in Europe, WTF are you moaning about.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

Maybe peoples expectations are just too high. We are playing against top professional sides in an unusual environment. As I said before at this elite level the smallest details matter (that's why MP is such a good manager IMO) but even our famous team of the sixties often struggled in Europe. Having said that we are not doing badly are we? Very much in contention to progress to the knock out stages the last 16 of the elite competition in Europe, WTF are you moaning about.

I want to make the last 8 or 4 or.....I'm not slagging our players off. The effort's there and they're a talented bunch, which is why it's so mystifying that this 'collapse' happens in the second half of games when we're often doing so well.

Ultimately, I want to win something, preferably the PL and become a force in the CL. To do that, both individual and collective improvement is needed.

 

[The RDBD]

It seems to be beyond the England national team and most of our club sides to just hold the ball and take some of the sting out of a game. I get that games ebb and flow and we will have to defend for periods but after half time, our passing and ball control completely disappeared

Tis a shocking indictment of the PL that teams cannot manage the level of passing
control/accuracy that Leverkusen showed in that game. La Liga teams can do it too.

And Spurs cannot blame the pressing in the 2nd half either.
It was hardly the level of the Dortmund away game last season.

As I said earlier, the clinical aspect is a big concern now.
The game was there for the taking in the 1st half, yet their GK was hardly doing
what Lloris was in the 2nd half.

 

[Citizen Kane]

So what happened to them in the first half and why could they only manage a draw on home ground. Football is about momentum and once started it can be difficult to reverse, that's why it often takes the break in play to switch things around. Spurs are at least as capable as Bayer, at least, and if the the halves had been reversed it could have been Spurs in the second half. This happens all the time in football. It;s how lesser teams get results against 'better' sides. In order to have the kind of control you are talking about we need to be have everything in our favour and long journeys to away games is not a plus point. Our results are more to do with age and experience than skill levels.

This is exactly my point. I don't fully agree that to have control of the game you need 'everything in your favour' though. You don't. You need one or two players who have the experience to take control of the game on behalf of the entire team. Dembele grew into 'that' player as last season wore on, and we saw with brutal honesty in the two Merseyside games how much we miss him. Even last night, he looked terribly rusty yet we still produced our best spell of the 2nd half with him on the pitch.

I don't think you and I are even disagreeing to be honest. I agree that we possess the skill throughout the squad to give any calibre of opposition a real headache. What we lack is the nous to retake the initiative if it has been wrested away from us - by a smart substitution, by half time, by a bad refereeing decision, by a clever tactical switch...whatever the cause is, as you say: football is about momentum and multiple factors can cause that momentum to swing the other way. But most if not all of those factors are controllable, except things like bad officiating or an injury to a key player. Our current problem is that Dembele is the only player who looks capable of swinging the momentum back again. I think Sissoko would too if he were played more centrally as Benitez did at Newcastle. Beyond them, Kane is the only player of the young crop who is mature beyond his years. When he is on form, he has the drive and tactically astuteness to dictate things surprisingly well for a striker.

I've felt for a long time that this is why many of our substitutions are ineffective. Unless we are already well on top and intriduce a GKN or a Son to tighten the screw further, as we did against CSKA, we don't really have any 'game changers' on the bench. Plenty of skill and plenty of talent, but we're visibly short in the experience department. And without the momentum, as you say, skill and talent are stifled.

 

[Spurf]

I want to make the last 8 or 4 or.....I'm not slagging our players off. The effort's there and they're a talented bunch, which is why it's so mystifying that this 'collapse' happens in the second half of games when we're often doing so well.

Ultimately, I want to win something, preferably the PL and become a force in the CL. To do that, both individual and collective improvement is needed.

Of course but having waited years and years for the kind of team we have now and the kind of manager we have now I am prepared to understand that 'Rome wasn't built in a day' this is effectively the second season of a very young team who are improving all the time. The players need to learn, their talent has got them where they are but they have to add to that experience. Deli has already improved over his astounding debut season and it's easy to stifle his natural talent with too much 'education' Son has adapted to the PL after a short season, Eriksen is a sublime talent but cannot maintain that for every game atm, if he did he would probably be playing for Madrid or Barca. Throughout our team we have top talent with more waiting on the sidelines. I think we can expect another good season but maybe have to have a little patience, this is not yet the finished article.

 

[Citizen Kane]

Tis a shocking indictment of the PL that teams cannot manage the level of passing
control/accuracy that Leverkusen showed in that game. La Liga teams can do it too.

And Spurs cannot blame the pressing in the 2nd half either.
It was hardly the level of the Dortmund away game last season.

As I said earlier, the clinical aspect is a big concern now.
The game was there for the taking in the 1st half, yet their GK was hardly doing
what Lloris was in the 2nd half.

I said this after Liverpool were publicly humiliated by a mid-table Spanish side who never even come close to winning La Liga in the EL final last year. They simply couldn't live with Sevilla's techincal superiority. Leverkusen are similarly a mid-table German side who win the Bundesliga once in a blue moon.

However, I do think that teams like us, City and dare I say it Arsenal have done a tremendous amount to turn things around for English football.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

Of course but having waited years and years for the kind of team we have now and the kind of manager we have now I am prepared to understand that 'Rome wasn't built in a day' this is effectively the second season of a very young team who are improving all the time. The players need to learn, their talent has got them where they are but they have to add to that experience. Deli has already improved over his astounding debut season and it's easy to stifle his natural talent with too much 'education' Son has adapted to the PL after a short season, Eriksen is a sublime talent but cannot maintain that for every game atm, if he did he would probably be playing for Madrid or Barca. Throughout our team we have top talent with more waiting on the sidelines. I think we can expect another good season but maybe have to have a little patience, this is not yet the finished article.

I take all of that but 'keep ball' used to form part of every team's basic drills. It should be a staple in every player's and ever team's locker. If we don't have it, then it's definitely something to work on.

 

[NSIS]

It seems to be beyond the England national team and most of our club sides to just hold the ball and take some of the sting out of a game. I get that games ebb and flow and we will have to defend for periods but after half time, our passing and ball control completely disappeared. For about 30 minutes we couldn't do the even basics, at all. It was like watching England in the Iceland game this summer. I'm not sure taking Janssen off was the best move and having been very keen to see him come on, Mousa's passing was shockingly awful.

I've not seen us be that bad in a domestic game for a while, yet we do it regularly in the second half of European away games and have done for a few seasons. Despite European experience and having some very good passers of the ball, we collectively lose our cool. Very often, it's when we're ahead or have been in charge of the game up to the 'collapse'. Away in Monaco in the EL last season comes to mind as does the away game at Inter, again in the EL.

It would help us massively if we could develop the ability to slow things down a bit and be difficult to get through. Chasing around at 100 mph for 90 minutes is hard work and yesterday's exertions will affect us on Saturday. We did it pretty well against Citeh but in Europe we are just found wanting when teams find some form in a game. I don't know why.

The game was played at 100 mph. In those conditions, instant ball control, one touch and accurate passing are essential.

For me, Leverkusen were simply better at it. We couldn't seem to retain possession for more than 10 secs.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

This is exactly my point. I don't fully agree that to have control of the game you need 'everything in your favour' though. You don't. You need one or two players who have the experience to take control of the game on behalf of the entire team. Dembele grew into 'that' player as last season wore on, and we saw with brutal honesty in the two Merseyside games how much we miss him. Even last night, he looked terribly rusty yet we still produced our best spell of the 2nd half with him on the pitch.

I don't think you and I are even disagreeing to be honest. I agree that we possess the skill throughout the squad to give any calibre of opposition a real headache. What we lack is the nous to retake the initiative if it has been wrested away from us - by a smart substitution, by half time, by a bad refereeing decision, by a clever tactical switch...whatever the cause is, as you say: football is about momentum and multiple factors can cause that momentum to swing the other way. But most if not all of those factors are controllable, except things like bad officiating or an injury to a key player. Our current problem is that Dembele is the only player who looks capable of swinging the momentum back again. I think Sissoko would too if he were played more centrally as Benitez did at Newcastle. Beyond them, Kane is the only player of the young crop who is mature beyond his years. When he is on form, he has the drive and tactically astuteness to dictate things surprisingly well for a striker.

I've felt for a long time that this is why many of our substitutions are ineffective. Unless we are already well on top and intriduce a GKN or a Son to tighten the screw further, as we did against CSKA, we don't really have any 'game changers' on the bench. Plenty of skill and plenty of talent, but we're visibly short in the experience department. And without the momentum, as you say, skill and talent are stifled.

GKN could be that player. He's something really different to our other players, with his pace and ability to dribble past players. He's also a goalscorer which Lamela and Eriksen currently aren't. I'm not sure where he was last night. He made a big difference in Moscow when he came on.

The other really dynamic force could be Sissoko. Playing more wide right doesn't get the best out of him. I see his main attributes as power, pace and strength and to get the most out of that he should be in the centre of things rather than in a more peripheral role out nearer to the wing. Away in Europe it would be impressive to see a central 3 of Dembele/Wanyama or Dier/Sissoko. The power of that should stop us from getting opened up too much and Sissoko and Dembele's pace and drive could bring the ball forward and cause devastation in their wake. Put a fluid 3 of Kane, Alli and Son up front and the full backs pushing on and that's an impressive line-up. It's a shame that we haven't had everyone fully fit to pick from yet. When we do, I think that our performances should start to be more complete and hit the heights of the middle of last season and hopefully even greater.

Then, it's just getting the finishing right to complete our world domination. It's a bit frustrating at the moment that the pieces are there far more than last season, we just need to get them all together to complete the picture. However, given the lack of Dembele and Kane for the majority of this season, we're right in the hunt.

 

[Dier Hard]

The game was played at 100 mph. In those conditions, instant ball control, one touch and accurate passing are essential.

For me, Leverkusen were simply better at it. We couldn't seem to retain possession for more than 10 secs.

In fairness, they should've been better at it. They were on home soil in the comfort of their own stadium in front of their own fans who sounded pretty loud from the TV, we technically shouldn't have been as dominant as we were in the first half against a very formidable side, it's a credit to our team that in that first half, we were the better team, also worth remembering we were missing key players and Dembele is still regaining match fitness.

Although Wembley isn't "home", it'll be interesting to see if they can come to England and play like they did in that second half from last night. Plus in two weeks time, Toby and Dembele should be fine while I doubt we'll rest Walker for a home leg. Never know, Kane might be able to feature as well seeing as he's back in light training now. Will be a much better Spurs they'll be facing (fingers crossed!).

 

[Spurm]

Another good away draw in the CL lads! It's the "home" form we need to worry about, although 1 game hardly a trend makes.

 

[Spurf]

I take all of that but 'keep ball' used to form part of every team's basic drills. It should be a staple in every player's and ever team's locker. If we don't have it, then it's definitely something to work on.

Unless you are playing a team like us. Which Bayer are, as are Liverpool now, teams like that make it very hard to play keep ball because of the speed of tackling and the pressing. We negated City because we got the upper hand and they like to press too. This kind of football is very like 11 man boxing with all the footwork and jabs and feints. Once one side gets on top it's not easy to retaliate because the nature of the system prevents ball retention that's the whole point. Just think of Barcelona getting beat by Celtic (they had Wanyama in that side) they are the worlds top side at the pressing possession game but they can still get beat.

 

[Spurf]

This is exactly my point. I don't fully agree that to have control of the game you need 'everything in your favour' though. You don't. You need one or two players who have the experience to take control of the game on behalf of the entire team. Dembele grew into 'that' player as last season wore on, and we saw with brutal honesty in the two Merseyside games how much we miss him. Even last night, he looked terribly rusty yet we still produced our best spell of the 2nd half with him on the pitch.

I don't think you and I are even disagreeing to be honest. I agree that we possess the skill throughout the squad to give any calibre of opposition a real headache. What we lack is the nous to retake the initiative if it has been wrested away from us - by a smart substitution, by half time, by a bad refereeing decision, by a clever tactical switch...whatever the cause is, as you say: football is about momentum and multiple factors can cause that momentum to swing the other way. But most if not all of those factors are controllable, except things like bad officiating or an injury to a key player. Our current problem is that Dembele is the only player who looks capable of swinging the momentum back again. I think Sissoko would too if he were played more centrally as Benitez did at Newcastle. Beyond them, Kane is the only player of the young crop who is mature beyond his years. When he is on form, he has the drive and tactically astuteness to dictate things surprisingly well for a striker.

I've felt for a long time that this is why many of our substitutions are ineffective. Unless we are already well on top and intriduce a GKN or a Son to tighten the screw further, as we did against CSKA, we don't really have any 'game changers' on the bench. Plenty of skill and plenty of talent, but we're visibly short in the experience department. And without the momentum, as you say, skill and talent are stifled.

The tougher the opponents the more we need everything in our favour; is that better? Yes you always need game changers and 'rocks' to turn a top side into a title winning outfit. Viera has never been replaced at Arsenal for example and they have never been the force they were when he was there. Their game changer was Henry they now have Ozil, but where is there rock? We have Dembele now and potentially Dier in a season or two as our 'rocks' Deli could be become our game changer, he's pretty close to that already. I think we have the players in situ they just need some more time to mature.

You always talk sense CK I would be surprised to find myself in serious disagreement with you.

 

[The RDBD]

it'll be interesting to see if they can come to England and play like they did in that second half from last night. Plus in two weeks time, Toby and Dembele should be fine while I doubt we'll rest Walker for a home leg. Never know, Kane might be able to feature as well seeing as he's back in light training now. Will be a much better Spurs they'll be facing (fingers crossed!).

If they are smart they will try and play like that for 90 mins rather than 45.
Spurs were able to withstand their pressing game far better than they
were the converse. I'd like to see Spurs give them the pressing intensity
of the Citeh game.

 

[Citizen Kane]

Unless you are playing a team like us. Which Bayer are, as are Liverpool now, teams like that make it very hard to play keep ball because of the speed of tackling and the pressing. We negated City because we got the upper hand and they like to press too. This kind of football is very like 11 man boxing with all the footwork and jabs and feints. Once one side gets on top it's not easy to retaliate because the nature of the system prevents ball retention that's the whole point. Just think of Barcelona getting beat by Celtic (they had Wanyama in that side) they are the worlds top side at the pressing possession game but they can still get beat.

This is a spot on analysis

 

[Spur of the Moment]

It's alright focusing our first half chances but let's be honest about it - not one of them was really unlucky. Alli should have hit the target with his header, Janssen should have at least troubled the keeper with his header that hit the bar and Lamela's volley was also hitting the bar, despite the decent save.

There were a couple of blocked efforts in there as well, but despite playing some slick stuff at times, the simple truth is we are not clinical enough right now.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Unless you are playing a team like us. Which Bayer are, as are Liverpool now, teams like that make it very hard to play keep ball because of the speed of tackling and the pressing. We negated City because we got the upper hand and they like to press too. This kind of football is very like 11 man boxing with all the footwork and jabs and feints. Once one side gets on top it's not easy to retaliate because the nature of the system prevents ball retention that's the whole point. Just think of Barcelona getting beat by Celtic (they had Wanyama in that side) they are the worlds top side at the pressing possession game but they can still get beat.

This is why I was mystified at Janssen's substitution, though. He was holding the ball up well, just as he did against West Brom.
It was far less useful against the Baggies, as we dominated possession easily, but he was removed exactly when we needed him.
His ability to pin defenders and occupy more than one player while not losing the ball was exactly what was required.
He held off four simultaneously at one point last night.

Maybe his fitness isn't up to playing 90 minutes of pressing at the moment, which doomed Kiessling at the end of the game?
Introducing a half-fit Dembele doesn't make much sense though, if that's the case.
Leaving N'Koudou out of the squad for him is puzzling, too.
Under what circumstances would Winks have got real time?

 

[Spurf]

This is why I was mystified at Janssen's substitution, though. He was holding the ball up well, just as he did against West Brom.
It was far less useful against the Baggies, as we dominated possession easily, but he was removed exactly when we needed him.
His ability to pin defenders and occupy more than one player while not losing the ball was exactly what was required.
He held off four simultaneously at one point last night.

Maybe his fitness isn't up to playing 90 minutes of pressing at the moment, which doomed Kiessling at the end of the game?
Introducing a half-fit Dembele doesn't make much sense though, if that's the case.
Leaving N'Koudou out of the squad for him is puzzling, too.
Under what circumstances would Winks have got real time?

It's always up for debate when you second guess the managers options and it's not something I often comment on but I could understand MP thinking we needed Dembele's strong midfield presence. They were overrunning us and Janssen becomes a decoration if we are not getting the ball forward.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Poch blitzing another media Narrative: http://www.espnfc.com/tottenham-hot...s-down-talk-on-kevin-wimmers-tottenham-future