What is a club?

[Leo]

I guess this thread may end up just showing the age of some of us.

For me from the 60s through to the start of the Premier League I knew the name of each and every one of our players at all times. Watford was the Club, the Team and the Supporters. Even with some fairly average players (no disrespect intended) names like Wiggs, Welbourne, Walley, Eddy, Garbett, Biond, Scullion etc were household names long before our glory days under Graham Taylor.
Season after season we followed our team and however successful we were or were not we enjoyed attending matches and supporting our club. The manager was OUR manager and we knew all about him - not some Jonny come lately ; here today and gone tomorrow.
Perhaps it is because I cannot get to matches now but I don't think it is that, I do not feel remotely the same. We now have star studded international players but go back two years and read out those names and you would not have a clue what club you were talking about.

The Pozzos have been brilliant for Watford - we probably would not even have a club if it were not for them so do not take this as any criticism of them. Our players are of a quality we never dreamed of possessing with international appearances the norm rather than the exception. However I do not get the buzz out of support as I used to.

All we seem to have left is the name of the club to say we support. We may be able to settle in the top league and even have success in cups etc but for me I am not sur eit can ever match what football was once about.

 

[Mexican Hornet]

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Do they still sell these? (Sorry Leo but I really miss them)

Back to your well made point: The club, IF it becomes a medium-sized Prem club, might beome more stable again in a few years. It has certainly been upheaval in recent times, just look at the player turnover! I guess that is what makes it harder for the fans, especially with less and less home grown and fewer local lads still...Glad Mariappa is back!!

 

[colognehornet]

A good thread Leo. I do not know what the legal definition of 'club' is, but I feel that many English clubs are stretching the definition. In Germany the situation is much clearer - most clubs there have so called Vereinstatus. In loose translation Verein means association, and the laws here stipulate that 51% of the shares of a football club must stay in the hands of the club itself, and cannot be taken out. No one individual can buy into more than 49% of the shares in a German football club, which means that the sorts of millionaire takeovers which happen in England do not happen here. The German model ensures continuity - similarly in Spain the move is more towards fan ownership (supported by the government), which may be one reason why the Pozzo's have sold Granada. In the 60s and 70s the idea of someone 'buying' your club would have been as if the world had caved in. We have given the Pozzo's much credit for what they have done for our club (how can you criticize a saviour ?), because of the mess which preceded them. Would we have responded to them so warmly if they had bought the club from Elton John ? I very much doubt it - whatever successes they brought with them. I cannot fully identify with a 'club' which exchanges 10 or so players every year - bringing in players who never knew where Watford was until signing. Which also replaces managers every year. Where is the next 'legend' coming from - maybe Troy will be the last. Like you I knew every Watford player - we knew that the team on the first day of the new season would have most of the players who finished the previous one, also that the shirts would be the same. I started supporting Watford when I was about 13, in about 1967/68, because they were my local club, I do not know if I would do the same again if now aged 13.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I know where you are coming from Leo and feel the same in many ways. Times change, our lives change and so often I see that others find they prefer things as they used to be. I grew up in Bushey and discovered WFC when I was an eight year old. By the time I was 13 years old I was doing a morning paper round so that I could have money to go and see every game at the Vic, first team, reserves and juniors. Cycle in, prop my bike against the old iron fence in Vicarage Road, without a padlock on it and it was still there after the game. As a 15 year old away games started, and I cannot say I ever had anything but a welcome at the clubs I visited.
Today if I go to Watford the only enjoyable bit is going to see my team play, because as a town I no longer like it. It changed probably at the time they put the ring road in, and you have that bridge across the shopping area. In my early days it was a genuine market town, with the cattle market in Market Street and two way traffic in the High Street. Having changed where I live now you see when you go back how the town planners have got so many things wrong, and compared to most towns I see here Watford has become dirty from litter and in many areas looks very run down.
The same could be said about the inside of the ground before the Pozzo involvement. It is not that long ago that I sat in the Rous and looked across at a total shambles. My last visit I looked across and although works were still on going there was a huge improvement with the SEJ almost finished.
This only is about the town that my club is situated in, but yes I did know who all the players were, although they did change more often than we remember. Bosman changed a lot and the players were freed from the tied houses that many lived in with their families. I can still remember an entire team from 50 years ago, but would probably struggle to tell you the starting line up last Saturday.
I like a great deal about many things that are at my disposal today and look back with fondness at the fields I could roam across that have now become housing estates. Pick out what I like, ignore what I don't, feel that somethings were better, I know many things for some people were a lot worse, and accept change where it is for the good. I do not accept that we can turn the clock back, even the one in Watford Museum that was over the old Rookery stand, but must trust that in time players will become established and not shipped out on what seems to simply be a good business deal. Back in my early days players were sold simply to keep the club afloat and the fans were upset, and it was not until the SEJ/GT era that things changed. I hope that the club have turned up some real gems that will stay for a few years, but with the way that football has been changed from a working mans sport into a corporate one I am not sure it will happen.

 

[hornethologist a.k.a. theo]

An interesting question, Leo, and one I've been mulling over a lot lately too. It's only one season and a bit since I stopped driving the 160 miles there and back to every home game but already I feel remote from what's going on at the club, despite avidly following all the updates many of you kindly supply on here. Some of it is to do with the players...very few of those I watched are regular starters now. I haven't lived in Watford, or Northwood anyway, for nearly eleven years...travelling from Tufnell Park first and later both Whitstable and Hampshire. I last worked in West Watford at the end of 2014 and I officially became an old git last year. All of those things are factors in some way but I also don't feel the same passion for PL football in general as I once did. Once I'd never miss a televised game; now I rarely watch one without a book or a newspaper at home in case I lose interest. There's no doubt great things are happening at the club, it's just that I fell in love with football in a different time and it's perhaps being older that makes you nostalgic for those earlier times.

I've watched a few National League games at Eastleigh and, funnily enough, it's a bit of a reminder of what watching football used to be like. The facilities are a bit shabby. You can hear what players are shouting. There's a strong smell of fried onions. The ball boys' kit doesn't always fit too well. Though the quality of the football is better than non-League used to be, you see the occasional player who looks as though he likes a beer or two. You can walk into the Members Bar and no-one seems to check whether you actually are a member. The core support is small but passionate, with its fair share of eccentrics...some of whom swap ends at half-time to stand almost directly behind the goals.

I suppose the answer is that our perception of what a club is will vary according to how old we are and what our experience of football-watching over our lifetime has been. Us older fans are capable of being realistic about the modern game, and we go on wanting our team to do well...but really most of the time the rose-tinted spectacles are lodged firmly on the bridge of our noses!

 

[NZHorn]

The problem is how people process change. I won't go into the philosophical debate on this other than to say that when we are young certain ideas get fixed in our heads. When things change we look back to those thoughts as being a sort of base line. Heidegger goes on about it. For me that base line is sitting in the Shrodell's Stand with a baked potato in each pocket to keep my hands warm until half time when I would eat them. That has gone forever and if I am being objective I am glad. The trouble is following a football team is about emotion.

I'm sure that some people would have complained that the club wasn't the same when it moved to the Vic or left the Southern League (deserted our friends!).

I think a football club, to its supporters, is more than a club - it is part of our sense of identity. No matter what happens Watford are my team and always will be. Change may bring sadness, it may bring joy but in the end it doesn't make much difference to my support.

 

[Leo]

Great responses thanks. Hope we get some young perspectives on here too as I rather felt some of us "old gits" would feel the same. I bet we could audition for Grumpy Old Men.
I was introduced to football as a 5 year old and used to cycle to Hayes Town with my brother - not sure if we even had to pay in those days. I loved the atmosphere - probably being a youngster in a crowd of strangers was new and exciting.
Moved to Watford and picked them up through school firends and like OFH with the help of a paper round even though I came from a background of Spurs season ticket holders and used occasionally to get tickets at White Hart Lane. In those days the clubs were light years apart. I enjoyed 3rd Division football and the missing on promotion every year - with constant rumours that we did not want to get promoted because Jim Bonsor wanted to keep control and felthe could not finance a second division club. Our excitement at getting promoted under Furphy knew no bounds. Sadly the 3 years in the second division coincided with me being away at UNiversity so I returned to Watford in the 3rd Division again having only managed a handful of second division matches.

As NZ says though I think that was when I was "programmed" in football ways and so these days - even though fantastic by any stretch of the imagination - I am left underwhelmed.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Not sure it is entirely an age thing Leo, but just look at where we all live. Well away from Herts, so we rarely get to a game, but do remember the days when we could get to see the team every game. It would be interesting to know if some of those who do get to see the team on a regular basis have the feeling that the club is drifting away from them.

 

[J T Bodbo]

Most of the views and replies have (and will I suspect) reflect people 'of a certain age' who started watching WFC 40+years ago. Whether we like it or not (and most of us particularly don't like the sense of 'disconnnection') the world of football has changed and even if we had continued languishing in the lower divisions , the days when the players walked to the ground with the fans are never going to reappear.
I do agree that the German version does keep a sense of club identity. In the Uk that was fostered for many years by the plain fact that owners consistently lost money - but still did it for the love of the game, or for local prestige. However, once the public company ownership model appeared, followed by the TV riches, it was always going to end up badly from a 'community' sense. Any idea that we , the supporters 'owned' the club was always unrealistic - except where it has happened deliberately in a few cases.
So, we have to decide, each one of us, how we feel about the football club we support, in the ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH IT HAS TO EXIST.
Well, for me it could all have been far worse. At one extreme, mad owners - think of Leeds United, crooked owners - think of Leed.... Oh we've done them already - not to mention OUR recent past - how about Birmingham, QPR, remote swimming in money , Chelsea, Man City etc (although it is only fair I think to acknowledge that at Man city they are building up the club in every sense), carpetbsggers at Old Trafford,. At the other extreme, desperate owners and greedy owners (Ashley at Newcassel and his behaviour at Rangers) , the Oystons at blackpool . I could go on.
We have owners who care about football, and the traditions of the club they have acquired, whilst trying to PROGRESS - which in the Premiership is one heck of a challenge. Their advantage, which they have used unashamedly, and I think beneficially, is to exchange players between 3 (now 2) clubs to help their overall position, as FOOTBALL businesses. for the most part the players seem to have been well-treated , only one or two unhappy ones, and the standard of football has been generally excellent. The ground is HUGELY improved, in a sympathetic way. I say this even though I have had to move 17 seats away from where I sat previously, to accommodate MORE hospitality. I would grumble more about that, except last year I experienced hospitality (at my expense) and the seats we had were shocking, worse than my season ticket seat at one end of UGT !

So for me the ride is still worth it , having started in 1959. ( I reckon cliff holton would get into todays team !) It still feels like its the club I support.
That's how I see it.

 

[Leo]

I think you have a good point about where we live OFH. In 2009 I lived on the Cassiobury and used to walk to the ground with my son. Moving to Wales meant I got to games far less often and then when Mrs L became ill even the rare occasion has ceased so I have to rely on remote support. Inevitably this has lessened my enjoyment and come to think of it I believe if I still lived in Watford I woud have a season ticket and probably enjoy it as much as I ever did.

 

[hockdude]

Not sure if it counts as a "young" view but in comparison to some... I started watching as a youngster in the early to mid 90's. As such the Watford glory days were already behind them and we were very much a plodding second tier club. Also, by this point the Premier League was very much up and running. I very much learned my history of the sport during my teenage obsession phase but you can't really shake where things were during your formative years; as a result any season we finish better than a Championship relegation battle is something of a success.

It does seem that people will have different mind-sets. I have gone through some pretty miserable days and you put up with them for the occasions; even before the Pozzo's I had two playoff finals, an FA cup semi, and a league cup semi final and they were great occasions on a personal level. I don't fear that a prolonged run in the Premier League will affect my own affections only that my history enhances my own enjoyment. However, the supporters that are now growing up with the club in its four sided Premier League stadium and with quality international players performing against the best week in week out, they will have a different view of the club to me and what the expectations are.

In terms of what the 'club' is, there does seem to be less of a community feel but I think that is a natural consequence of where we are and part of the sacrifice you make in return for the success of being a Premier League club. Of course this could just be my view as I no longer live in Watford and have to travel to games the local side to it is lost to me, my nephews went to the open day recently and from what I hear it was a great day and the players were all very involved. Regardless, I think much of the 'club' is held by the fans themselves and while we continue to follow the team, the decisions made within Vicarage Road is somewhat irrelevant (such as the case during the Baz years).

That is a very difficult subject to write coherently about so apologies for the stream of consciousness if it doesn't make any sense, but I can't be bothered to read through and edit it!

 

[duggie2000]

A football club is the supporters who follow them through thick and thin and its place in the local community, owners and player come and go, success and failure ebb and flow but the supporters and the community are permanent and for ever
My personal history with Watford really began on the first Saturday in January 1967 Watford played Liverpool in the third round of the FA Cup
I was listening to it in Ward 15 Mount Vernon Hospital on Hospital Radio
I had been in a Motorcycle accident New Year Eve and my right leg was so badly smashed up it took three weeks before the doctors decided they could save it and nobody expected me to walk again without crutches or a walking stick
I was lying in a hospital bed unable to come to terms with what had happened to me when the nursed asked if we wanted to listen to the match commentary, obviously we said yes
As I listened to the match, a goalless draw, a crazy idea entered my head, I would not only prove the doctors wrong I would play football again, I now had a purpose, a goal, and an ambition to achieve
Listening to that match changed me from some who followed Watford to a Watford follower and 50years later still a season ticket holder
I did play a couple of games of football, not very well, and the injuries I picked up still affect my day to day life, but I did it
Watford FC are us and we are Watford Ft

 

[brian_66_usa]

Weather we like it or not ,Our club is being taken down a path because our owners are true football fans . But its not waford its Udinese that they love . They have owned them for over 25years and would they sell them NO , Would they sell us to any crook if they thought it would be good for Udinese am sure they would . As long as we can be the money cow for the benefit of all three clubs then we enjoy the ride .But should the rules change that you cannot do deals between clubs that the family own . If that was to happen we would be put up for sale . Im sure that there will be time when deals done look very good for Udinese and bad for us and some of our fans will not be happy But most on here will remember that we are here because of Udinese and the pozzos

 

[Leo]

A football club is the supporters who follow them through thick and thin and its place in the local community, owners and player come and go, success and failure ebb and flow but the supporters and the community are permanent and for ever
My personal history with Watford really began on the first Saturday in January 1967 Watford played Liverpool in the third round of the FA Cup
I was listening to it in Ward 15 Mount Vernon Hospital on Hospital Radio
I had been in a Motorcycle accident New Year Eve and my right leg was so badly smashed up it took three weeks before the doctors decided they could save it and nobody expected me to walk again without crutches or a walking stick
I was lying in a hospital bed unable to come to terms with what had happened to me when the nursed asked if we wanted to listen to the match commentary, obviously we said yes
As I listened to the match, a goalless draw, a crazy idea entered my head, I would not only prove the doctors wrong I would play football again, I now had a purpose, a goal, and an ambition to achieve
Listening to that match changed me from some who followed Watford to a Watford follower and 50years later still a season ticket holder
I did play a couple of games of football, not very well, and the injuries I picked up still affect my day to day life, but I did it
Watford FC are us and we are Watford Ft

Great post - inspiring - thanks. Apart from that game itself I remember listening in to the radio for the draw for the 3rd Round which was a rarity for us - andhoping to get a "big" club - they did not come much bigger than Liverpool in those days.

 

[colognehornet]

A football club is the supporters who follow them through thick and thin and its place in the local community, owners and player come and go, success and failure ebb and flow but the supporters and the community are permanent and for ever
My personal history with Watford really began on the first Saturday in January 1967 Watford played Liverpool in the third round of the FA Cup
I was listening to it in Ward 15 Mount Vernon Hospital on Hospital Radio
I had been in a Motorcycle accident New Year Eve and my right leg was so badly smashed up it took three weeks before the doctors decided they could save it and nobody expected me to walk again without crutches or a walking stick
I was lying in a hospital bed unable to come to terms with what had happened to me when the nursed asked if we wanted to listen to the match commentary, obviously we said yes
As I listened to the match, a goalless draw, a crazy idea entered my head, I would not only prove the doctors wrong I would play football again, I now had a purpose, a goal, and an ambition to achieve
Listening to that match changed me from some who followed Watford to a Watford follower and 50years later still a season ticket holder
I did play a couple of games of football, not very well, and the injuries I picked up still affect my day to day life, but I did it
Watford FC are us and we are Watford Ft

Excellent post Duggie, and thanks for sharing it with us. As you say, players come and go, managers do the same, but the club is still there. The problem of owners coming and going is a different thing however - or at least in English football. I imagine that the supporters of Wimbledon thought that they were the club - but look where that finished. The fact is that those who own football clubs often think of them only as corporate entities - and if they choose to end 100 odd years of history by moving to a new, out of town, stadium - or even moving to a completely different area, then there is little that can be done to stop it. We may be the club, but they own it. We have come up lucky, for now, but other fans have seen their clubs all but destroyed by unscrupulous owners. How many potentially big clubs are wallowing at the lower ends of the league (well below their natural level) because they once had bad owners ? The other thing is - who are the supporters ? Clubs like Chelsea, Man. Utd etc. have seen their support base change over the last 30 odd years - how many of those who stood on the old Stretford End in the 70s are munching prawn sandwiches and paying ridiculous prices to sit and clap occasionally now ? Other clubs have seen their support dwindle to less than a half of what it used to be - Birmingham and Coventry for example, because they once had dodgy owners.

 

[Jsybarry]

I think part of the reason for the number of foreign players changing the looks of our clubs in England is the lack of decent reserve football. How many of the side that featured in that famous night at home to Kaiserslautern were regulars in the team that got us into the UEFA Cup? I recognised those who had hardly played for the first team because having a season ticket meant that I got into reserve games for free. There will never be another situation like that in European club football again.
Also, what understanding will the players have about a game against L*t*n should we be drawn against them in the FA Cup? It will have to be explained to them in terms of local derbies they do know, even TD will have to be told to compare it to Birmingham v Villa. I appreciate part of that will be due to it being more than 10 years since we played them, but youngsters coming through will have learned it anyway.

 

[colognehornet]

I think part of the reason for the number of foreign players changing the looks of our clubs in England is the lack of decent reserve football. How many of the side that featured in that famous night at home to Kaiserslautern were regulars in the team that got us into the UEFA Cup? I recognised those who had hardly played for the first team because having a season ticket meant that I got into reserve games for free. There will never be another situation like that in European club football again.
Also, what understanding will the players have about a game against L*t*n should we be drawn against them in the FA Cup? It will have to be explained to them in terms of local derbies they do know, even TD will have to be told to compare it to Birmingham v Villa. I appreciate part of that will be due to it being more than 10 years since we played them, but youngsters coming through will have learned it anyway.

This is one important difference between English football and the situation on the continent, which I think the Pozzo's have not yet grasped. Clubs in Italy, Spain or Germany can afford to have large squads because their reserve teams are often playing in lower leagues - in Germany most clubs in the 1 Bundesliga have a B team playing in either the 3rd or 4th tier of German football and I think the situation is similar in Spain or Italy. So keeping reserves match fit is not a problem in those countries. At Watford we have to assume that any player not getting regular first team football is going backwards in terms of their fitness levels and sharpness.