The Politics Thread

[PleaseNotPoll]

I don't think that sexism can never be channeled through / promulgated by a woman any more than racism can never be channeled through / promulgated by someone who's black etc no. The problems of a misogynistic society are not perpetuated only by a small group of evil sexist men. They are perpetuated by all of us, men and women and, as with racism, we need to be aware of our more questionable learned behaviours, challenge ourselves and basically try to be as self-aware as possible.

This always sounds like an attempt to blame men for things that don't even involve them, to me.
I haven't seen or read The Hunger Games, but I thought that they were supposed to have strong female characters, including the lead?
Female writer, female producer, female lead... misogynist? What's wrong with them and is it exclusive to the films?

 

[lennypops]

I'd actually argue the opposite. It's precisely BECAUSE we are all taught to walk on eggshells, that we all take offence so easily.

To me, it is the "learn your rights, learn how to take offence and when you should feel offended" culture, that causes the most problems.

Causes the most problems? Now in different company I might be the one bemoaning the current culture of offence and the shutting down of debate.

But let's get one thing straight: PC and equal rights came up as a result of centuries, no millennia, of women being literally treated as property. Their opinions didn't count, they had no power over themselves, their bodies or society. It was illegal for them to be educated and any intelligence that still rose up despite society's myriad blocks had to be hidden and suppressed. They could be raped and beaten and these acts were not even crimes. This is within living memory.

Also within living memory a black kid could be joyously tortured and killed by a delighted mob for simply being suspected of whatever they fancied making up. Black people could not vote in many parts of the US. They could not live in certain places, could not even *be* in certain places. To this day blacks encounter huge obstacle and prejudices and are far more likely to go to prison for stuff that I, as a white male, will never have a problem with. I live in the USA and technically should carry my green card with me everywhere. But I don't. You know why? Cos I don't look Mexican so who cares? I'm not gonna get in trouble for not carrying it. A young brown-skinned male could have got in serious trouble for both running a red light and not having his green card on him. Me? No problem.

Having no property, no rights, being able to be brutalized, raped, robbed, having no chance of education or choice in how your life is lived: these are problems. Occasionally being pulled up by a maybe over-sensitive, right-on social justice warrior is not much of a problem.

Racism and sexism are far from "fixed" and they, and all the consequences of them that I've listed above, are the real problem.

 

[RobSpur]

Causes the most problems? Now in different company I might be the one bemoaning the current culture of offence and the shutting down of debate.

But let's get one thing straight: PC and equal rights came up as a result of centuries, no millennia, of women being literally treated as property. Their opinions didn't count, they had no power over themselves, their bodies or society. It was illegal for them to be educated and any intelligence that still rose up despite society's myriad blocks had to be hidden and suppressed. They could be raped and beaten and these acts were not even crimes. This is within living memory.

Also within living memory a black kid could be joyously tortured and killed by a delighted mob for simply being suspected of whatever they fancied making up. Black people could not vote in many parts of the US. They could not live in certain places, could not even *be* in certain places. To this day blacks encounter huge obstacle and prejudices and are far more likely to go to prison for stuff that I, as a white male, will never have a problem with. I live in the USA and technically should carry my green card with me everywhere. But I don't. You know why? Cos I don't look Mexican so who cares? I'm not gonna get in trouble for not carrying it. A young brown-skinned male could have got in serious trouble for both running a red light and not having his green card on him. Me? No problem.

Having no property, no rights, being able to be brutalized, raped, robbed, having no chance of education or choice in how your life is lived: these are problems. Occasionally being pulled up by a maybe over-sensitive, right-on social justice warrior is not much of a problem.

Racism and sexism are far from "fixed" and they, and all the consequences of them that I've listed above, are the real problem.

Fair points Lenny (although I would largely disagree with your final sentence).

But we don't need to, "be aware of our more questionable learned behaviours, challenge ourselves and basically try to be as self-aware as possible", in order order to make sure we arent torturing a black kid or raping a woman.

 

[RobSpur]

Post it note :


CHECK LIST

1. Am I currently raping a woman ?

If yes STOP IT NOW

If no, go to '2'.

2. Am I currently torturing a black kid ?

If yes STOP IT NOW

If no, go to '3'.

3. Check again in 15 minutes

 

[lennypops]

This always sounds like an attempt to blame men for things that don't even involve them, to me.
I haven't seen or read The Hunger Games, but I thought that they were supposed to have strong female characters, including the lead?
Female writer, female producer, female lead... misogynist? What's wrong with them and is it exclusive to the films?

I don't follow your first sentence. Sorry.

I don't think The Hunger Games in particular is mysogynistic, no. Of course it's actually great that our daughters can read and watch a young female protagonist being opinionated, politicized, respected and, of course, kick ass. I only mentioned the disparity in the dialogue/roles because it was being used as an example of how everything's fine. Firstly it's not actually terribly representative of young female characters in a Hollywood film and secondly it actually *isn't* all that "female" after all. Even this film is dominated by men on screen doing most of the talking.

I don't think that sexism is limited to films, no. It's just an example I threw out and I certainly never intended on discussing the minutae of any particular film. To discuss this stuff you need some sorts of wider analyses of films (in this case) in general. I hope the two links I put up provide a small bit of that. There are hundreds more if you look.

To me these issues really are about how to make the world a (yikes) better place. I see sexism. I see it affect the lives of people I love and I see children being moulded in repressive, unjust ways. This is not about idiots on the bottom half of the Internet shouting "sexist" or "racist" at film directors they'll never meet and subsequent debates that occur on message boards. It's about the damage and violence actually done to actual people. And everyone in society would be better off if that damage and violence and those false limitations weren't there.

 

[RobSpur]

I don't follow your first sentence. Sorry.

I don't think The Hunger Games in particular is mysogynistic, no. Of course it's actually great that our daughters can read and watch a young female protagonist being opinionated, politicized, respected and, of course, kick ass. I only mentioned the disparity in the dialogue/roles because it was being used as an example of how everything's fine. Firstly it's not actually terribly representative of young female characters in a Hollywood film and secondly it actually *isn't* all that "female" after all. Even this film is dominated by men on screen doing most of the talking.

I don't think that sexism is limited to films, no. It's just an example I threw out and I certainly never intended on discussing the minutae of any particular film. To discuss this stuff you need some sorts of wider analyses of films (in this case) in general. I hope the two links I put up provide a small bit of that. There are hundreds more if you look.

To me these issues really are about how to make the world a (yikes) better place. I see sexism. I see it affect the lives of people I love and I see children being moulded in repressive, unjust ways. This is not about idiots on the bottom half of the Internet shouting "sexist" or "racist" at film directors they'll never meet and subsequent debates that occur on message boards. It's about the damage and violence actually done to actual people. And everyone in society would be better off if that damage and violence and those false limitations weren't there.

What sexism do you see Lenn ?

(genuine question btw, not being a sarcy asshole)

 

[lennypops]

Post it note :


CHECK LIST

1. Am I currently raping a woman ?

If yes STOP IT NOW

If no, go to '2'.

2. Am I currently torturing a black kid ?

If yes STOP IT NOW

If no, go to '3'.

3. Check again in 15 minutes

Did you just forget to check if your niece wants a Star Wars toy for Christmas? Did you just assume something about the young black kid in front of you at the bank? Did you not bat an eyelid when a woman said "Oh I just can't possibly understand the offside rule"? Did you notice the many times on MOTD when Mark Lawrenson was outrageously sexist? Did you assume that the woman in the couple is the better cook or the man the more practical? Do you always use the male pronoun when talking about insects and other animals?

Just a quick list of little things that I might check myself for. Good for the thinking parts.

 

[lennypops]

What sexism do you see Lenn ?

(genuine question btw, not being a sarcy asshole)

Afraid you'll have to go back and read my posts.

 

[RobSpur]

Fair comment. Look forward to reading them and your insights tomorrow.

 

[RobSpur]

Did you just forget to check if your niece wants a Star Wars toy for Christmas? Did you just assume something about the young black kid in front of you at the bank? Did you not bat an eyelid when a woman said "Oh I just can't possibly understand the offside rule"? Did you notice the many times on MOTD when Mark Lawrenson was outrageously sexist? Did you assume that the woman in the couple is the better cook or the man the more practical? Do you always use the male pronoun when talking about insects and other animals?

Just a quick list of little things that I might check myself for. Good for the thinking parts.

There's bigger problems in the world to worry about mate tbph.

 

[lennypops]

There's bigger problems in the world to worry about mate tbph.

Well yeah. There's probably virtually no topic on Earth that people talk about every day that you couldn't say that about.

I mean we are, after all, only here talking about the corrosive effects of micro-sexism because of our shared love of discussing whether Gary Mabbutt was a better defender than Ledley King, how much of a twat Martin Keown is and whether or not there's really a place in the Spurs squad for Ryan Mason.

 

[lennypops]

And to get an important point straightened out. One that *is* important: Martin Keown is a gigantic twat.

 

[RobSpur]

You are clearly an intelligent and articulate man Lenny, as well as a considerate one.

You have also posted (from what ive seen) courteously, respectfully to others, and with diligence.

On this basis, it would be arguably unreasonable for me not to return the same courtesy. But.....


I think there's a big problem with western countries and their view of the world. They want it to be perfect. Like a Ken and Barbie (or their black and gay equivelants) movie for everyone.

In reality, the world is not perfect. It's this ****ing huge rock, formed out of fire and ice, flying across a vast dark galaxy.

It's not meant to be perfect, and it's never going to be perfect. So when the US and UK think theyll go and tidy Libya and Iraq up, they create a haven for people who cut peoples heads off. When they decide to impose sanctions on Iraq, they actually just end up starving half a million children to death. When they lend support to saudi backed rebels in Syria in the hope of installing a friendly government, they just end up killing half a million Syrians.

The world we live in isnt a Ken and Barbie film. It's full of animals being eaten alive, people being burned alive and impaled to death, and various other unimaginably appalling things.

So I for one am not going to lose any sleep over whether a little girl somewhere wondered whether the reason her uncle didnt buy her a star wars toy was because she was a girl.

 

[lennypops]

You are clearly an intelligent and articulate man Lenny, as well as a considerate one.

You have also posted (from what ive seen) courteously, respectfully to others, and with diligence.

On this basis, it would be arguably unreasonable for me not to return the same courtesy. But.....


I think there's a big problem with western countries and their view of the world. They want it to be perfect. Like a Ken and Barbie (or their black and gay equivelants) movie for everyone.

In reality, the world is not perfect. It's this ****ing huge rock, formed out of fire and ice, flying across a vast dark galaxy.

And it's never going to be perfect. So when the US and UK think theyll go and tidy Libya and Iraq up, they create a haven for people who cut peoples heads off. When they decide to impose sanctions on Iraq, they actually just end up starving half a million children to death. When they lend support to saudi backed rebels in Syria in the hope of installing a friendly government, they just end up killing half a million Syrians.

The world we live in isnt a Ken and Barbie film. It's full of animals being eaten alive, people being burned alive and impaled to death, and various other unimaginably appalling things.

So I for one am not going to lose any sleep over whether a little girl somewhere wondered whether the reason her uncle didnt buy her a star wars toy was because she was a girl.

I agree that the world is a vastly complex, harsh place and unintended consequences are hugely influential. It's hard to know which good intentions might lead to which actions which might lead to which unintended consequences. The more I learn about history the more I see how little of what humans end up doing they really meant to end up doing!

I'm not saying you or anyone should lose any sleep over any of this. I just know for myself that my mind is not so full of important and profound thoughts over socio-global and evolutionary forces that I can't wonder about the best way to ensure that if I fall on my arse and have a heart attack there will be twice as many people who might be able to help me cos they've all been just as likely to become doctors as each other regardless of their genitalia (to give one example). I genuinely believe that remembering to give girls the opportunity to do "non-girly" things is a tiny part of that.

 

[RobSpur]

I agree that the world is a vastly complex, harsh place and unintended consequences are hugely influential. It's hard to know which good intentions might lead to which actions which might lead to which unintended consequences. The more I learn about history the more I see how little of what humans end up doing they really meant to end up doing!

I'm not saying you or anyone should lose any sleep over any of this. I just know for myself that my mind is not so full of important and profound thoughts over socio-global and evolutionary forces that I can't wonder about the best way to ensure that if I fall on my arse and have a heart attack there will be twice as many people who might be able to help me cos they've all been just as likely to become doctors as each other regardless of their genitalia (to give one example). I genuinely believe that remembering to give girls the opportunity to do "non-girly" things is a tiny part of that.

Again fair enough.

But some girls like to do "girly things".

They are girls after all.

Some girls like to behave like girls have traditionally tended to do, whether that's sexually, behaviourly, professionally or whatever.

We are afterall, biologically, two different genders. That is how the human race - and indeed every animal on the planet - works.

And who are "we" to tell them they cant be like that, or should feel bad for feeling like that, because we want them to be less like that and be instead like those other girls who want to do things differently ?

And coming back to the gender pay issue that started this off - that is exactly what is happening. Left wing feminst groups (and others) have identified that women tend to take less well paid jobs than men. They consider this unacceptable. They consider it unacceptable that there are those who do not comsider it unacceptable. That's not just employers, it's also women who are happy with the career choices theyve made. Who dont want to be required by socoety to change. Who dont want to be pressured into doing something different, or made to feel guilty for not doing something different.

Who dont want to feel like they have to value themselves by the money they earn, just because some ****ing left wing think tank in manhatten has decided that the world will not spin again until they do.

These people are entitled to their views. They are not entitled to thrust them upon others, and demand that everybody lives by their ideals.

 

[lennypops]

No. No it was not.

Feig was announced as director in August 2014
The all-female cast was announced in January 2015

When did the backlash begin? August 2014.

It's like that idiotic image that was doing the rounds on social media a few months ago, namely this one...

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...which not only managed to be oblivious to the fact that you could have put a dustpan and a packet of Quavers in the lead roles of a Star Wars film and make a pornographic amount of money (feel free to joke about the prequel trilogy pretty much doing that...) but to say Hollywood is telling us "female and minority leads don't sell" rings hollow when they cast Jennifer Lawrence as Katniss Everdeen instead of change the character to Keith Everdeen, and it's hardly new given Sigourney Weaver was the key element of the Alien franchise thirty years ago. Same goes for the claim about minority actors, considering The Rock is half Samoan and half black yet he's Hollywood's go-to guy for blockbusters, Will Smith's got a long list of blockbusters to his name from the past twenty years, and so on.

Give people an excuse and they'll find an agenda regardless of the facts - and if you think that's an "idiotic argument" then you're underlining the problem just as much as your casual dismissal of facts just so you can push your tired argument that has no basis in reality.

Oh! I just realized! You misunderstood something I wrote (I think). When I mentioned "idiotic arguments" (or words to that effect) I was not saying that you were the one making them! I was agreeing with you that many criticisms of the criticisms of Ghostbusters were silly. My point was that you/I/one should not spend too much time concerning ourselves with these silly points and that just because some people were stupidly crying "mysogeny!" in response to any criticism of Ghostbusters doesn't mean to say that none of the criticisms of it actually *did* come from mysogynistic places.

There are bad arguments, dumb points made by all sides of all debates. But to concern yourself only with the dumb arguments against your position isn't very useful or interesting. That's what I was trying to say.

I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't just calling your arguments "idiotic" in case that's what you were thinking when you wrote this post.

 

[lennypops]

Again fair enough.

But some girls like to do "girly things".

They are girls after all.

Some girls like to behave like girls have traditionally tended to do, whether that's sexually, behaviourly, professionally or whatever.

We are afterall, biologically, two different genders. That is how the human race - and indeed every animal on the planet - works.

And who are "we" to tell them they cant be like that, or should feel bad for feeling like that, because we want them to be less like that and be instead like those other girls who want to do things differently ?

And coming back to the gender pay issue that started this off - that is exactly what is happening. Left wing feminst groups (and others) have identified that women tend to take less well paid jobs than men. They consider this unacceptable. They consider it unacceptable that there are those who do not comsider it unacceptable. That's not just employers, it's also women who are happy with the career choices theyve made. Who dont want to be required by socoety to change. Who dont want to be pressured into doing something different, or made to feel guilty for not doing something different.

Who dont want to feel like they have to value themselves by the money they earn, just because some ****ing left wing think tank in manhatten has decided that the world will not spin again until they do.

These people are entitled to their views. They are not entitled to thrust them upon others, and demand that everybody lives by their ideals.

You'll notice that I repeatedly talked about "giving the option" or not wanting to impose false limits. I don't think girls shouldn't play with dolls. I think they should be allowed to feel fine playing with whatever the **** they want to play with. If it's dolls, fine. If it's Lego, fine. If they want to wear pink dresses, fine. If they want to dress up as robots, fine. This is feminism. It's really not nearly as controlling or oppressive as you think. It's trying to get away from that, actually.

Right now, as I type this, girls are being told that the toy car is "not for them" or that the towel with the space ship on is "for boys". THIS is the limiting and the control that is in the world. I'd like there to be less of it.

There is reams of research that these seemingly harmless limitations we put on girls (and boys for that matter) follow them into other aspects of their life, into the classroom, into their peer groups, into the careers office, into their marriage (an entirely patriarchal ceremony and arrangement too for the most part btw), into their careers and their roles as parents...

Men and women are different. Of course. Feminism is not about disputing or repressing that fact. It is about allowing men and women to be as different or as similar as is naturally possible/desirable/enjoyable and not be forced into roles that were defined hundreds or thousands of years ago and which really don't help us as a species much any more.

 

[redwhiteandermblue]

You are clearly an intelligent and articulate man Lenny, as well as a considerate one.

You have also posted (from what ive seen) courteously, respectfully to others, and with diligence.

On this basis, it would be arguably unreasonable for me not to return the same courtesy. But.....


I think there's a big problem with western countries and their view of the world. They want it to be perfect. Like a Ken and Barbie (or their black and gay equivelants) movie for everyone.

In reality, the world is not perfect. It's this ****ing huge rock, formed out of fire and ice, flying across a vast dark galaxy.

It's not meant to be perfect, and it's never going to be perfect. So when the US and UK think theyll go and tidy Libya and Iraq up, they create a haven for people who cut peoples heads off. When they decide to impose sanctions on Iraq, they actually just end up starving half a million children to death. When they lend support to saudi backed rebels in Syria in the hope of installing a friendly government, they just end up killing half a million Syrians.

The world we live in isnt a Ken and Barbie film. It's full of animals being eaten alive, people being burned alive and impaled to death, and various other unimaginably appalling things.

So I for one am not going to lose any sleep over whether a little girl somewhere wondered whether the reason her uncle didnt buy her a star wars toy was because she was a girl.

I agree with a great deal of this, and think it's very well put. Political correctness was in fact originated in the Soviet Union and involves frightening group-think and group-hate tendencies.

Something short of a complete disaster should be aimed for a lot more frequently than it is. "First of all, do no harm," should be heeded by politicians, diplomats and those involved in the foreign policy establishment of powerful countries far more often than it is.

And there's no point losing sleep over things you can't change, which started long before you were born and will go on long after you die. Doing some good where you can, on the other hand, is worth doing.

Everything needs to be judged on a case by case basis. For example, relating to an earlier point, a study found that teachers in US public schools were sexist, routinely recognizing and praising boys more than girls--but that this sexism was gender-blind: women teachers did it just as much as men. That's a case where I think teachers should attend a brief something or other looking at that study.

 

[lennypops]

I agree with a great deal of this, and think it's very well put. Political correctness was in fact originated in the Soviet Union and involves frightening group-think and group-hate tendencies.

Something short of a complete disaster should be aimed for a lot more frequently than it is. "First of all, do no harm," should be heeded by politicians, diplomats and those involved in the foreign policy establishment of powerful countries far more often than it is.

And there's no point losing sleep over things you can't change, which started long before you were born and will go on long after you die. Doing some good where you can, on the other hand, is worth doing.

Everything needs to be judged on a case by case basis. For example, relating to an earlier point, a study found that teachers in US public schools were sexist, routinely recognizing and praising boys more than girls--but that this sexism was gender-blind: women teachers did it just as much as men. That's a case where I think teachers should attend a brief something or other looking at that study.

You think popular culture in Soviet-era America was not also riddled with group-think and group-hate tendencies?! The sort of group-think and group hate that progressive thinking such as (the intelligent application of) "PC" has actually done a lot of good to undo?

 

[lennypops]

I understand people's criticisms and reservations with PC. Really I do. I think that people are stupid and shallow and judgemental through that particular lens too. I see and hear it all the time where people are so used to only ever allowing themselves to say the seemingly "right" thing that they forget to try to speak sense and to try to see the world clearly.

However I feel there's a real danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water just cos some nitwit blogger thinks it's sexist to say that women are shorter than men (or something). The previous decades' social pressures to basically *be less ****ing horrible to one another* was a very good thing. The world is less horrible because of it. Less people feel less alienated from society. It's good that my dad had to feel bad about being racist and homophobic in public. You know what? As a result he actually *is* a more accepting and open-minded person. And gay people, women, racial minorities all have a better life because of it too.