In the end, I do not care about any of this. I would never support UKIP. No one with any sense who actually wants a solution ever would. So if that's what the working class of England want to do, then again... **** 'em.
Ignoring how certain people were choosing to vote in Scotland brought through the SNP. Should that happen in the UK as well? Should we not be bothered?
Impsaint I don't always read all of your posts because they are so long. However clearly you have spent a lot of time on this topic and as you say, "living it" Through this referendum discussion I keep reading that Leave won because all people want is jobs. How many people? With your knowledge on this topic, are you able to tell us how many people you are talking about? You mention 4m jobs, how many people do you think voted out against this issue?
It was always going to be a period of political and economic tumult, though. That was why I said that UKIP would do well...they have just experienced a major victory over the mainstream parties, which now find themselves with serious internal problems. Further, the Leave victory has emboldened the far right in general, because they now feel like some of their more extreme views have the support of a much larger part of the populace, potentially even a majority. And the longer this process and the resultant instability drags out (and Leave's foremost members seem content to let it fester), the less confidence many will have in the institutions of government. This isn't going to just go away. Even if the economy stabilizes, even if Labour and the Tories get it back together, the extreme right is going to make major inroads.
So Imps, are you in effect saying that because a lot of angry impotent people committed a monumental act of self harm, that the rest of us have to listen to those people, pander to them, and perhaps be led by them?
So for the sake of this country why the heck don't the form a coalition government to negotiate with Europe. Surely there is enough decent MP's in the leave camp that can do this. Then when we are out, lets have an election to carry us forward from there.
I can not speak for the whole of the UK (as Impsaint does) but Mr WS used to work in a factory and the factory operators were mainly Polish/eastern European. He was involved in recruitment and he told me that the reason for this was that English people did not apply. The jobs were slightly more than minimum wage but the English weren't interested and he was told this by the recruitment agencies. The recruitment agencies were not ignoring the English applicants they weren't there. This is a fact not speculation. Whether the reason is wages or just the English would rather be on the dole than work in a factory I do not know. We will soon find out no doubt. I know the minimum wage was brought in to stop low pay but to me it just encourages it as companies know they don't have to pay more. I agree everyone should get a decent wage for the job they do. This will obviously put prices up but at least it would be fair.
You need people from both camps to negotiate Beddy otherwise it is a very divided Government. You talk about a coalition Government!! I can only see that happening if the Conservatives fractured in two! It may have happened in the 20s when you had moderate Tories wanting to negotiate with the miners who were on strike because their pay was depressed, and hardline ones who supported the pit owners locking them out until they agreed to the pit owners conditions. (I will need to look this up in a few moments as I may well have some details incorrect) But we certainly had a National Government around that time.
From what I understand (David Cameron's statement yesterday) there will be a coalition from a number of places (not just politicians) to discuss the negotiations. Formal negotiations will then take place between the Government and the EU and then be put to the House of Commons where they can still be rejected. Here's a link to his initial statement if anyone is interested. Obviously he answered a lot of questions after this which clarified some aspects of the statement. https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...-the-result-of-the-eu-referendum-27-june-2016
FLT. The number of jobs is not the number of people. Each person that has experienced this socialises with others who see their anger not just hears their "tales". When you are in a community where many suffered than you are seeing several people's anger and then you start to listen. These people have parents and children. I would say at least a third of the leave vote was immediately derived from the jobs issue. The old ones "wanting the 50s back" are large I admit but the tipping point was that large demographic where people from all backgrounds were directly affected or saw their friends/relatives directly affected. The thing that has driven that anger even more (as you can see by my by frustrations on here) is that normal people in vast numbers across the country do not believe us. When I used to pay in the pool league there were people from all backgrounds, professional, trades and people in those rubbish jobs and these professionals and trades although being insulated from being directly affected will have seen not just one or 2 sorry tales of woe. They will have seen and heard the same story personally experienced from many many people and when you hear the story that many times from many different people then it becomes more than just anecdotal. The pool league was 1200 people and while there it is very competitive everybody knows each other and it is very close knit. People in communities are much closer knit than people understand. Most people around here that don't separate themselves from normal working class people will know someone who has experienced this and when several in a community has experienced this then it is much more than anecdotal. I will back off this thread a little bit because at the end of the day we have been whistling in the wind for a long time and here is no different. There are people who just do not believe it. They do not believe that anything on this scale could possibly happen. They do not believe that the whole elite clique and those that are Neo-Lib are happy to perpetuate things whether the TV media do it naively or by ignorance I don't know. I would stop short of saying that many people are part of the club that have been happy to let this happen but they do not help by making programs. Getting a load of down and outers. giving them 2 days in tough jobs and then letting the farmers say 2 didn't turn up, 2 left after a day and the ones that did complete the 2 days were far too slow compared to migrant workers. If that Ewan Davies program had requested only people that used to do these jobs. The ones that weren't just mouth about wanting jobs when they never did them before and then gave them a couple of weeks to get up to speed then you could have accepted what these industrial farmers were saying but they didn't. They decided to get the "scroungers" in to portray the farmers and factory's stories as true when they weren't. The British workforce in these factories produced more per hour than the migrants do now. The truth is that in real terms they produce more per £ than the English did but they do not produce more per hour than that experienced British workforce is and you can't wheel out a few people and compare their second day in the job to a migrant average that has been in the job for a while and is up to speed. It isn't individual farmers to blame. It is big businesses. The smaller farmers are being bankrupted and you are seeing big business building "Super dairies" and conglomerates. Research how big business (supermarkets and such) are having an effect. This isn't just about the price they pay. They are driving farmers to have to expand and when there are drops in demand it leaves farmers on the brink. Big Business is taking full advantage with their "super dairies" and their operations are on an industrial scale. This is big business in action and big business is supported by the government since Blair and the EU support big business. Read the article below which mentions a huge employer in this region. I won't name it but it is in there: The line starting with He once sold to the supermarkets via........... I used to work for them. It was the largest egg processing plant in Europe. Almost every egg producer in the country dealt with them. They had to because the supermarkets are the demand and the supermarkets including their home brands are all packed by that company. My factory wasn't the only egg factory. This company has many factories across the country. Tory donors are in charge of it but it was Labour policy that enabled them to reduce their labour costs. Search this employer on the net and you will pull up lots of articles on agencies mistreating staff, treating them as slaves etc. Research the Guardian articles on Wisbech. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-blight-sales-former-breakfast-favourite.html What they highlight is the mistreatment of migrants and the slave conditions. They highlight the employer(s) passing the buck with their token "we will investigate this. We do not accept this kind of practice from our agencies" but it is what it is. They have passed all the liability to agencies. What they seem to forget is that these are not new jobs and there were people doing them through history. They highlight the plight of migrants but we are the forgotten people. They never highlighted that we lost those jobs. I have said all I can say really on here because people just don't believe it. This is what has driven UKIPs surge. People did not vote UKIP when they lost their jobs. They only started voting UKIP when they had been ignored for a decade and UKIP adopted a stance of "listening to their anger." Labour hard left know this. John Cruddas and John Healey both have investigated the UKIP danger. They are ignored by the PLP though. They do not want to return to their working class policies and what John Cruddas and John Healey have pleaded with the party to understand is looking like it is still being ignored with the mega rich Centrists like Hodge and Umunna pushing on oblivious. No-one ever believed SNP could go from a fringe party to power. They definitely did not believe they could do it so quickly but they did it alarmingly fast and if Labour do not wake up very quickly UKIP will do the same and then the only saviour will be that they cannot take over Tory ground. They have minimal impact on actual Tory voters, just the swing voters that lean towards Tory. http://www.theguardian.com/politics...labour-jon-cruddas-report-welfare-immigration https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/23/labour-win-working-class-voters-ukip I leave it at that on here because I have said all I need to and it is clear that many people on here still don't believe. I don't blame them because people haven't believed for the past decade. Just to point out that UKIP are a very real threat to wiping out Labour if they do not wake up to how they have alienated their core support and "we have to listen" means nothing if it is just listening. They have "been listening" for years but have done nothing about addressing things and some Senior Labour figures know it. Labour campaigners and grassroots have been trying to tell their PLP for years with it falling on deaf ears. If the Labour party does not return to some semblance of being a working class party they will be left with London and lose the North entirely. Forget about Tory back biting. Labour are the only party that can beat UKIP in these northern and Welsh seats.
Not at all. People should have listened to them before and we wouldn't be where we are now. I don't expect people who don't buy their stories to listen to them now but Labour must because Labour are the only party that can fight UKIP. The medias "taking support off the Tories" is very misjudged. Most real Torys won't vote UKIP. Only a Tory leaning wing voters would make that jump.
Fair enough if that is what happened where you are. It isn't what happened in my region and recruitment agencies weren't involve back then. I applied through the job centre. My factory employed directly from local newspaper adverts and job centre. You didn't need that many applicants. They were only needing to fill the odd vacancy and the people who worked there already were British. I was one of 2 people that joined in the same week and we both were there until 2005. There was normal turnover. There was no recruitment back then. It was before Polish/EU migrants came in. Totally agree. The NMW has lowered wages up here and has been disasterous for many. It has provided a base to which employers can hide behind. Farage has no power in the UK.....yet. He has nothing to do with the negotiations and nor does Le Pen. He can say what he wants. The EU know he has no power.
Toby Young has been reading my posts. A new home for Old Labour — with the Tory right A new grouping of manual workers and middle-class intellectuals could sweep all before it http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-new-home-for-old-labour-with-the-tory-right/
Imps, so 5-6M on the jobs bit, max and that might be being very generous. That still isn't the majority of the leave vote. There are lots of other reasons people voted, but my bet is, was and always has been since they announced we were having one, that he best rhetoric will win/won.
Wouldn't be surprised. Just seen part of his performance on the BBC. He is an embarrassment to the UK. We need to keep this as friendly as possibly for the negotiations and he's being a right arse.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36650014 Look at the expression of the woman behind him and the bloke to the back and his right , as this goes on .
