Off Topic Politics Thread

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Well, I've said at least 3 or 4 times that it has been Boris' way of getting his wing of the Tory Party in power, and himself into office, so that comes as no surprise. Apparently, according to the Govt expert, it will take upto 10 years to fully extricate England & Wales from the EU, so there's many a slip. We just shouldn't be doing all this in the first place.

One thought that struck me today, not for the first time in the last few weeks. ISIS must be wasting ammo like crazy with their celebrations. I'm sure they'll be taking credit for their part in breaking up the enemy's union. What a recruitment incentive this will be for them.
 
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Okay, so what do people make of this theory from the well-regarded David Allen Green who is the law and policy man for the FT...?


Summary of his tweets this evening...


There's no reason for Article 50 not to be immediately activated upon a 'leave' victory in a referendum. With every day that passes, the activation of Article 50 seems less likely.

So, what happens next?

Cameron goes. Boris - most likely - gets into Number 10 and heads off for the talks with Europe before deciding that he isn't going to activate Article 50 after all and he advises that it's best for us to stay in the EU with some possible 'new' concessions that he can secure.

It effectively reduces everything that's happened in recent months to an underhanded plot to get Dave out of Downing Street and get Boris in.

Thoughts...



Article: https://next.ft.com/content/3073daed-7458-38ed-826b-5b6d1dc81dad

Green's tweets: https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen

Wouldn't shock me. Works even if not a plot with defined goal of toppling Cameron...it was definitely all about personal ambitions. And I'm still very, very dubious the UK leaves.
 
Wouldn't shock me. Works even if not a plot with defined goal of toppling Cameron...it was definitely all about personal ambitions. And I'm still very, very dubious the UK leaves.

If they don't figure things out quickly, it may not be up to them.

If Scotland wants independence bad enough that they will give up their anti-nuke stance and allow us/EU access to their bases just like we do now while they are part of the UK, then England is in trouble. Scotland has the nukes and oil, and those are the two most valuable assets a country can have.

That's a horribly cynical way of looking at things, and if you want to call the US the world's biggest militaristic, environment-destroying assholes I guess that's fair. But it is what it is.
 
Here's a decent reason for not immediately triggering Article 50. Once you formally trigger it the 2 years the UK has to sort out an exit start ticking away and we won't know who will be in charge of the country for 3 or 4 months so you're potentially wasting between an eighth and a sixth of your negotiation time. You might even have a situation where the fixed term parliaments act gets repealed and we have another election by the end of the year. In which case a quarter of our negotiation time is potentially wasted.
 
I think that it has got a bit nasty and personal on this thread at times, from the stereotyping to the general insults directed towards those groups that voted the "wrong" way (whichever way that might have been).
I'm disappointed to be honest because I did believe that we were better than this, that we would able to accept that other views can exist and might have validity despite conflicting with our own...I guess I was being naive.

I am a Leave voter, but I dont think I know better than the Remain camp, I made my choice based on the information I could glean from various sources and determined for myself that Leave was the choice that best fits my beliefs. Remain voters probably think the same about their choices and I respect that - obviously I dont share those beliefs or I wouldn't have voted Leave however I am mature enough to accept that other people will have come to their decisions in a similar way to mine, by weighing up what we regard as facts and basing our responses to those facts as we understand them.

Some of the things I have read, on here, on other forums and on Fb have been frankly astounding regarding the way that some people perceive members of the other voting faction. I voted Leave, but I'm not stupid, ignorant, selfish or easily led. I'm not a baby boomer, I'm not intent on dooming my children to a miserable future out of the EU, I'm just a normal working family man with the same worries and concerns that I'm sure everybody else has...the way I voted doesn't change me as a person, it doesnt make me better or worse than someone that voted to remain and I wouldn't expect to be treated any different because of my voting preferences - I'd be willing to put money on the fact that nobody would stand up, look me in the eye and say some of the things that have been said on this thread about supporters of both sides however the virtual nature of communication allows people to overstep propriety and good manners and to feel safe enough to throw around the kind of insults that would get you a right slap if you said it in the pub.

As I said earlier, I'm disappointed in the way this politics thread has degenerated at times and I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't putting some people off contributing, which is particularly sad when the general feeling is that more of us in real life are actually engaging with politics now due to interest stirred by the referendum.

I'm not going to post on this topic any more as I have already said everything I feel that I need to. It's notoriously difficult to have a reasoned debate when you can't interpret responses correctly, due to lack of visual response, lack of nuance or even a missing emoticon, and It makes discussion of such an emotive and personal topic as politics into a complete minefield just waiting to blow up in somebody's face.
I've read some interesting posts, I've been educated by some views and I've been troubled by some. Those things are all good as that is what a debate should produce for the participants however there comes a point when the positive aspects of a discussion are so lost in pettiness and name calling, the recriminations so vehement that the thread becomes an unwelcoming place.
I'd be happy to see this thread continue and will continue to dip in and out to see what people think, but perhaps I'll wait until people do not feel so personally aggrieved before I get involved again in any way. :emoticon-0100-smile


Very well said <applause>
 
I think that it has got a bit nasty and personal on this thread at times, from the stereotyping to the general insults directed towards those groups that voted the "wrong" way (whichever way that might have been).
I'm disappointed to be honest because I did believe that we were better than this, that we would able to accept that other views can exist and might have validity despite conflicting with our own...I guess I was being naive.

QUOTE]]

Im going to just pick up on something here because it is important for me. There has been generalisation but I haven't read anything personal from anyone. Archers got a bit out of hand early on with his generalisations but not aimed at an individual.

I like your posts RJ and respect your opinions and views. Apart from one or two people throwing the global racist remarks, there's been nothing wrong. Some people have got hung about comments on intellect, but mine have not be aimed at one side, they've been aimed at both and included me in that. No-one wanted to hear that bit though, they just picked up on the word intellect and chose to be offended. It is not offensive to say that in a population, there will be difffering intelligence in the people on both sides.

I feel that as a Remainer, the leavers have quickly interpreted my posts as rude and attacking individuals. I have carefully made sure I have not done that. I also feel that the leavers are equally as bad as the remainders at making sweeping comments towards those who voted on the other side and I am continually seeing posts that follow mine with a sweeping statement. Once you make a comment you are pigeon-holed and the debate stops and the arguing begins with passion. Just as an example (sorry ImpSaint) - I accused myself of being selfish and then had a number of paragraphs posted against me as to why I shouldn't call him selfish. I hadn't, I had called myself it, but the blinkers were on.

I didn't want this thread in the beginning and I made that point at the time. I didn't want this vote and I stand by my reasons for it (which include me not knowing enough). I said people change when it comes to politics. That's happened. I'm pretty sure that there will be some division on the forum, with people not wanting to post.

The bottom line for me is this.

Almost half the people wanted in and just over half wanted out. That's a dangerously close position. I don't know what else could be done once they'd decided to go to the electorate, but it is what it is.

I really hope that the forum owners revert back to a politics ban.
 
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So I work in the city now for a large Hedgefund, been told that they're relocating from London in April, that's my job gone.

I'll say it Grimlock as nobody else seems to have....( which I find a little odd in our close knit community)

I'm very sorry to hear that. It's terrible news for you. I really hope that you are able to find something else, or that you are in a position to be able to cope financially without. I don't know your circumstances, but if you have a family, I hope that there is no lasting affect on them and you quickly get an even keel.

Good luck. Stay positive.
 
In 2014 I voted No in a (it seems) misplaced sense of responsibility to the UK and the Union. My father and grandfather had fought for in the World Wars, after all. No kilt swaying jingoism. Now I feel like I`ve been thoroughly butt-£ucked by my pals. I wonder if the queen is purring, like she reportedly was after Cameron told her that the Scots referendum was a No. I quite like David Cameron as a bloke, although I don`t agree with his politics - I wonder who will replace him - I don`t see a credible replacement. The only sensible voice I`ve heard in this whole tawdry affair has been Nicola Sturgeon.

I have to agree that every time I see and hear her, Sturgeon is the most credible of individuals out there. I don't agree with a lot of her views, but she appears to have a message, deliver it and not just be fighting and bullshitting.
 
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So I work in the city now for a large Hedgefund, been told that they're relocating from London in April, that's my job gone.

That's terrible, KG. I feel for you, as I feel for anyone thrown into this position. I truly hope you manage to find another position quickly. I guess there's no chance of you moving with the job?

Having worked across Europe and the globe, I find it quite amazing that the concerns voiced by the CBI and financial industries before the vote were ignored and rejected by our "future leaders" as lies and PR for Remain. I had quite a heated debate with a friend who is in the financial industry a few weeks ago after he said it was all "nonsense" and "couldn't happen". I asked him why he was so adamant to leave and he said it was all about Turkey getting in, being overrun by immigrants and getting "control" back in "our" hands.
As someone on here said, allowing the same people who voted "Boaty McBoatface" to make such a key decision was the real tragedy.
And now people like KG will suffer - I truly despair
 
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I have to agree that every time I see and hear her, Sturgeon is the most credible of individuals out there. I don't agree with a lot of her views, but she appears to have a message, deliver it and not just be fighting and bullshitting.
I have to disagree with you I'm afraid. I believe she has an anti English agenda more than anything else.

Why on earth would she be against rule from Westminster, with all the concessions they receive, but be happy to be ruled by Brussels which will end up being even more intrusive?

It's a sad, historical argument.
 
I have to disagree with you I'm afraid. I believe she has an anti English agenda more than anything else.

Why on earth would she be against rule from Westminster, with all the concessions they receive, but be happy to be ruled by Brussels which will end up being even more intrusive?

It's a sad, historical argument.

Hey Lff, I clearly said I didn't agree with her views. I said she seems not to bullshit.

Edit: I know what I've done! I've broken a rule. I've said I like someone who doesn't share my views... Aggghhhh!
 
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I have to disagree with you I'm afraid. I believe she has an anti English agenda more than anything else.

Why on earth would she be against rule from Westminster, with all the concessions they receive, but be happy to be ruled by Brussels which will end up being even more intrusive?

It's a sad, historical argument.
I`ve never heard any anti-English sentiment from her - give us an example. She is pro-Scottish, not anti-English. She made that quite clear in her speech yesterday.
 
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I`ve never heard any anti-English sentiment from her - give us an example. She is pro-Scottish, not anti-English. She made that quite clear in her speech yesterday.
Rhetoric. As I said she's happy to be ruled by Brussels but not Westminster. It's just illogical unless she has a hidden agenda
 
Rhetoric. As I said she's happy to be ruled by Brussels but not Westminster. It's just illogical unless she has a hidden agenda

But we are not ruled by Brussels - that is the point. You can read nonsense about 80% of our laws are made in the EU, and they have control of everything. Rubbish - 13% of law is made there.

Whereas the Scots are ultimately still ruled by Westminister. Good luck to them - I would vote for independence.
 
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Hey Lff, I clearly said I didn't agree with her views. I said she seems not to bullshit.

Edit: I know what I've done! I've broken a rule. I've said I like someone who doesn't share my views... Aggghhhh!
It wasn't the fact of you liking her that I was querying, actually I wasn't querying as such. It was her "credibility". And the fact that all I hear is "bulls**t" whenever she opens her mouth.

You are of course free to like who you wish to like! I think I'm developing a pathological hatred of all politicians.
 
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I have to say I have been somewhat surprised by the remarks presented from both sides of the camp. None of us know for sure what is going to happen in the future. That goes for both sides and it is no good arguing any different. A majority is a majority no matter how you want to look at it. It was always going to be a narrow victory in either direction and no doubt if the vote had gone the other way we would still be having this kind of conversation.
The country has made its decision, it's made its bed, so now we have to lie on it.
Being bitter about its decision and being totally negative will get this country nowhere.
We more than survived well enough outside of the EU before joining. We will do again if we all pull together.
It will be sad to see Scotland leave us but if that is what she wants then so be it. If she would prefer to be ruled by non elected people that is their choice. Personally I am not so sure they will not be just as split as we are when it comes to their "in out" referendum. However that is what democracy is all about. At least we have the freedom to make those choices other people do not have such luxuries........
 
But we are not ruled by Brussels - that is the point. You can read nonsense about 80% of our laws are made in the EU, and they have control of everything. Rubbish - 13% of law is made there.

Whereas the Scots are ultimately still ruled by Westminister. Good luck to them - I would vote for independence.
Well, good luck then because I sincerely believe that if the stated goal of a federal Europe is to succeed, that 13% will soon grow.
 
But we are not ruled by Brussels - that is the point. You can read nonsense about 80% of our laws are made in the EU, and they have control of everything. Rubbish - 13% of law is made there.

Whereas the Scots are ultimately still ruled by Westminister. Good luck to them - I would vote for independence.

Err please explain why they should make any laws that other country's have to abide by and made by non elected people? Also why should their courts have the right to overrule a country's own home made laws? If that is not ruling over people then I really do not know what is.
 
Err please explain why they should make any laws that other country's have to abide by and made by non elected people? Also why should their courts have the right to overrule a country's own home made laws? If that is not ruling over people then I really do not know what is.
Unfortunately for all leave supporters we will have to sign up to agree to certain laws etc as part of any trade agreement. It is similar to the way we refuse to trade (officially) with certain countries until they 'reform'. The only positive I can see coming from this is the fact politicians will not be able to blame the EU for their mistakes etc in the future. Every time someone criticises a Government decision it is either the EU's fault or the previous regime's fault. No, if you make false promises which you fail to deliver it is your own fault - take responsibility.
 
Err please explain why they should make any laws that other country's have to abide by and made by non elected people? Also why should their courts have the right to overrule a country's own home made laws? If that is not ruling over people then I really do not know what is.

Ok what laws have they overruled then? Please give me an example of a LAW that they have overruled.

And, they are elected - another ludicrous myth. Just because less people turn up to vote for an MEP, they are still elected. The Commission acts as the civil service, but are appointed by the Parliament, that we elect.