Off Topic European Debate Thread

[wizered]

They certainly did. My Uncle was killed in the evacuation of Crete and my Grandfather was shot through the neck in Palestine (he survived). But that was against the Nazis which is a totally separate issue.

Indeed, part of the reason the EU was set up was to bind the warring nations of Europe together with trade to prevent the horrific wars that generations past had endured. In that is has been highly successful.

I do agree, the original concept of the EU and it's previous titles was set up for trading purposes and I am all for that but now it has become a horrendous, self protecting, ponderous, bloated superstate, I personally hate and detest it, our security and defence has been in the hands of the UK & N.A.T.O not the EU, the years of peace have nothing to do with the overpaid, faceless, unelected bureaucrats, sweating away behind their keyboards in their luxury pads in Brussels.

I respect your family and genuinely am sorry for your family losses in the wars, a lot of us have suffered the same pain but it is thanks to them and others of that generation that we have the right to vote and enjoy the freedoms we have today, that is why I am voting leave to preserve these freedoms and escape the shackles that we have all suffered.

 

[Sapphire]




crazy decision mate but fair play to you.

Banging our heads against a brick wall,with the eu sucking us dry for all they can get.

Voting out as i hope the majority do.

Your view. Sucking us dry? I don't think 30 pence per day per person is quite that!

 

[wizered]

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[Red Robin]

Your view. Sucking us dry? I don't think 30 pence per day per person is quite that!

I think is is more that that,especially with lives being under threat as the NHS struggles to cope with the freeloaders using and getting free treatment that they have not paid a penny into.

Dentists unable to cope with the free services we give to the foreign invasion,when we have to pay and wait.

Crime at the highest point caused by eastern europeans facts.

Wages being brought down in the building industry by cheap labour.

I could go on and on,but you can see where i am coming from

 

[wizered]

According to this report the EU cost's us approx. £200 per year which is about 55p each per day, a bit more than previously stated..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...w-much-does-Britain-pay-to-the-EU-budget.html

 

[banksyisourhero]

There are your answers, although regarding the first 2, you turned the point that I made to suit the leave profile. MY statement in this respect was that leaving the EU free market would automatically remove the amnesty that all members receive about having to comply with individual legislation regarding component parts NOT obvious things like providing a plug to make something work or having the steering wheel in on the correct side

Your point was that we would have to manufacture items to comply with EU regulations at the point of sale with no 'amnesty' my point was very simple we already have to do this and pointed out some examples.

What amnesty??? Give an example rather than just saying stuff with no evidence!

"no, it will not be business as usual with the EU" as we will be out of the club - not something you care to concede..?

You assume this.. you know nothing of the sort. big manufacturers will want to trade, some of them Geman!

We will never know unless we try.

You carry on with you complicity and obey the unelected bureaucrats..

I'm out.

 

[banksyisourhero]

this is part of the requirement for membership so there is no question as to whether it is acceptable, it is a just a fact. Personally, it does not cause me the sort of emotive angst that we see on here and, it helps to boosts tax revenue. Anyway, this is nonsense "question" because you know that we don't have to build a city to accommodate anyone, it's not like we have separate areas for people moving to this country. Undoubtedly more housing is required but this is something that this country has fallen down on for literally decades.

Another non answer.. (the bit about a City the size of Hull is comparative as an example for ****s sake)

is it a fact or nonsense?? you can't have both

Read the 60 pages this has been dealt with and you have managed to add even less!

 

[Sapphire]

According to this report the EU cost's us approx. £200 per year which is about 55p each per day, a bit more than previously stated..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...w-much-does-Britain-pay-to-the-EU-budget.html

Which just goes to show how misinformed we all are. Whose figures and views are accurate? The debate is loaded with inaccurate statements. Too much guesswork and not enough to make a clear decision.
Only one thing is without question and that is if we exit, any thoughts of a return with our tail between our legs are unimaginable.

 

[Red Robin]

Which just goes to show how misinformed we all are. Whose figures and views are accurate? The debate is loaded with inaccurate statements. Too much guesswork and not enough to make a clear decision.
Only one thing is without question and that is if we exit, any thoughts of a return with our tail between our legs are unimaginable.

We will not want to go back with our tails between our legs,we will be free to trade the world over without the lame duck of brussels dictating to us what we we do.

 

[Sapphire]

I think is is more that that,especially with lives being under threat as the NHS struggles to cope with the freeloaders using and getting free treatment that they have not paid a penny into.

Dentists unable to cope with the free services we give to the foreign invasion,when we have to pay and wait.

Crime at the highest point caused by eastern europeans facts.

Wages being brought down in the building industry by cheap labour.

I could go on and on,but you can see where i am coming from

Again I think most of your points are overstated.
I go to an NHS dentist. Never had a long wait for treatment.
Can't answer crime figures . I don't know.
Wages brought down by cheap Labour? I can only speak as I find. It seems to be the case that the majority of EU immigrants work in sectors well below their skillset. They are prepared to do the jobs which our lot find too menial. They get paid on the same system as UK workers; pay the same taxes and make the same contribution to the social services as everyone else. Our expats in Spain get better healthcare services for free. It's rather a lot of swings and roundabouts!

 

[Red Robin]

You're either born a follower (remain) or a leader (Brexit) and sadly too many Liberal ways have eaten away at our souls these last 20 years. To see a vote to leave today would be a cry to all our youths to cut themselves from the umbilical cord that is the EU and lead us once more to the top of the leader board .

 

[wizered]

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[Cliftonville]

Wages brought down by cheap Labour? I can only speak as I find. It seems to be the case that the majority of EU immigrants work in sectors well below their skillset. They are prepared to do the jobs which our lot find too menial.

If you read the thread I have stated my work is in social care - NHS.

What I do is not menial. The majority do not do it, because they do not have the skill set.

In the care sector wage compression caused by immigration is no myth. You are displaying a form of snobbery that thinks it is ok that skilled carers, who are often highly educated and qualified should accept low pay and poor working conditions because there is migrant labour to do the role for less.

It is exploitation.

Exploitation that is leading to poorer services for the vulnerable within society. Sadly it is an example of how skewed the national moral compass has become that this is considered to be a consequence that is the acceptable face of free movement of labour = **** em we can get somebody to do it for less.

 

[colognehornet]

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Maybe you should stop and consider, before bringing such sensationalist rubbish on the boards, that EU. citizens only make up 3.6% of Britains population - a modest number compared to some other nations. An immigrant is responsible for the founding of every seventh new business in the UK - and this, in turn, creates 14% of all new jobs. The ultimate goal of the EU. is the raising of living standards in all its member states and this, if done by a strong EU., is the only way to put a break on migration. Why is it also that the Brexiters are always trying to portray Britain as a small child having sand kicked in its face by the EU. yet, on the other hand try to tell us how dynamic the country is. All EU. decisions are made by elected representatives from the member states and in 90% of all cases they have voted the same way that the British MEPs did, this is one of the highest ratios in Europe.

 

[Red Robin]

Maybe you should stop and consider, before bringing such sensationalist rubbish on the boards, that EU. citizens only make up 3.6% of Britains population - a modest number compared to some other nations. An immigrant is responsible for the founding of every seventh new business in the UK - and this, in turn, creates 14% of all new jobs. The ultimate goal of the EU. is the raising of living standards in all its member states and this, if done by a strong EU., is the only way to put a break on migration. Why is it also that the Brexiters are always trying to portray Britain as a small child having sand kicked in its face by the EU. yet, on the other hand try to tell us how dynamic the country is. All EU. decisions are made by elected representatives from the member states and in 90% of all cases they have voted the same way that the British MEPs did, this is one of the highest ratios in Europe.

Not voted in by the British public

 

[Cliftonville]

The ultimate goal of the EU. is the raising of living standards in all its member states and this, if done by a strong EU., is the only way to put a break on migration. .

An equality that will only be done via nations conceding power to Brussels, complete fiscal union, true integration, and a move away from neo liberalist economics.

I would politely suggest that many of the Remain camp are not wanting that goal at all. They want the status quo to continue and its dog eat dog capitalism.

 

[colognehornet]

An equality that will only be done via nations conceding power to Brussels, complete fiscal union, true integration, and a move away from neo liberalist economics.

I would politely suggest that many of the Remain camp are not wanting that goal at all. They want the status quo to continue and dog eat dog capitalism to continue.

I would agree that many are in this for different motives, or how else would Nigel Farage and Arthur Scargill be in the same camp.
Maybe it's worth while actually summing up the benefits of the EU. which Cameron hasn't really done.
1. We have the freedom to live, work or retire anywhere in Europe. (and 2 million have done this).
2. It sustains millions of jobs.
3. Holidays are much easier ( & safer - we have the right to emergency healthcare anywhere in Europe and consular protection from any EU. embassy, anywhere in the World).
4. Consumer protection - better environmental rules and workers rights eg. maternity pay.
5. Cross country coordination and cooperation in the fight against crime.
6. The CBI has estimated that EU. membership is worth between 62 and 78 billion pounds per year to the British economy.
7. We have greater influence through being a part of the most successfull trading block in the World (the GDP from the EU. was higher than that of either the USA. or China.

I could go on here - but now the case for Brexit, based on myths and easily repeatable slogans.
1. Britain will be overrun by EU. migrants, placing pressure on our social services, wages etc.
Fact. The EU. population in the UK. is difficult to measure because there is no effective registration system - it is estimated at 3.3 million. Unemployment is very low in the UK. and immigrants are able to integrate fully into this workplace - and pay more into the system than they take out - not to mention the 12 million or so European tourists who visit London every year.

2. Tales about how expensive Europe is.
Fact: Half of all money paid by the UK. is reimbursed in the form of agricultural subsidies, EU. financed projects or research grants. In terms of what Britain actually pays in, in relation to GDP, it drops to place 10 in Europe.

3. Over estimation of Britain's trading power.
Fact: A union of 28 states has more negotiating power than one alone - as Obama has been very clear about.

4. The criticism of a rule crazy unelected bureaucracy in Brussels.
Fact: Bureaucracy does get on many people's nerves, not just in Britain, but, this serves the internal market of the EU. All decisions are made exclusively by representatives of national governments and elected EU. politicians (voted in by you, including British - the only reason they vote less often is because so many of them are from Ukip and never go to meetings - just run up their expense accounts). In 90% of all cases laws were made which the British had voted for.

5. London will remain as banking capital of Europe
Fact: Investments are being relocated already.

All a bit of a no brainer really - and the force behind Brexit ? A man who, as a journalist once said 'never let facts interfere with a good story'.

 

[johngalleyfan2]

OFF TO VOTE SOON .... THANK GOODNESS THE DAY HAS ARRIVED AND THIS THREAD IN THE TRUE ANNALS OF THE EU HAS HAD SOME POLICTICALLY CORRECT RESPONSES

STATEMENTS WITH NO FACTS AND A LOT OF HOGWASH .. are we allowed to say hogwash? or will it upset some department deep within Brussels working on a new name for pig...

hopefully at 2201 this thread wil be thrust into the abyss

NEWS just coming in .. the agricultural dept of the EU has just been given 3 billion euro's to have the name changed for brussel sprouts as 1 of the 1000 members does not like Brussels being referred to as little cabbages, it might be misconstrued as those working ( or pretending to ) or living there are cabbages !

OFF TO VOTE l e a v e , l e a v e ,l e a v e

 

[Cliftonville]

I would agree that many are in this for different motives, or how else would Nigel Farage and Arthur Scargill be in the same camp.
Maybe it's worth while actually summing up the benefits of the EU. which Cameron hasn't really done.
1. We have the freedom to live, work or retire anywhere in Europe. (and 2 million have done this).
2. It sustains millions of jobs.
3. Holidays are much easier ( & safer - we have the right to emergency healthcare anywhere in Europe and consular protection from any EU. embassy, anywhere in the World).
4. Consumer protection - better environmental rules and workers rights eg. maternity pay.
5. Cross country coordination and cooperation in the fight against crime.
6. The CBI has estimated that EU. membership is worth between 62 and 78 billion pounds per year to the British economy.
7. We have greater influence through being a part of the most successfull trading block in the World (the GDP from the EU. was higher than that of either the USA. or China.

I could go on here - but now the case for Brexit, based on myths and easily repeatable slogans.
1. Britain will be overrun by EU. migrants, placing pressure on our social services, wages etc.
Fact. The EU. population in the UK. is difficult to measure because there is no effective registration system - it is estimated at 3.3 million. Unemployment is very low in the UK. and immigrants are able to integrate fully into this workplace - and pay more into the system than they take out - not to mention the 12 million or so European tourists who visit London every year.

2. Tales about how expensive Europe is.
Fact: Half of all money paid by the UK. is reimbursed in the form of agricultural subsidies, EU. financed projects or research grants. In terms of what Britain actually pays in, in relation to GDP, it drops to place 10 in Europe.

3. Over estimation of Britain's trading power.
Fact: A union of 28 states has more negotiating power than one alone - as Obama has been very clear about.

4. The criticism of a rule crazy unelected bureaucracy in Brussels.
Fact: Bureaucracy does get on many people's nerves, not just in Britain, but, this serves the internal market of the EU. All decisions are made exclusively by representatives of national governments and elected EU. politicians (voted in by you, including British - the only reason they vote less often is because so many of them are from Ukip and never go to meetings - just run up their expense accounts). In 90% of all cases laws were made which the British had voted for.

5. London will remain as banking capital of Europe
Fact: Investments are being relocated already.

All a bit of a no brainer really - and the force behind Brexit ? A man who, as a journalist once said 'never let facts interfere with a good story'.

Point four is a fallacy. I purchase services. Agency workers I indirectly employ have next to no rights ... Did that one earlier.

Nothing here surprises me. People are making points about the economy, points that they never make in their life. It’s a bit of fun.

But within my work settings I see the reality. It's the low wage earners who have been hit hardest by the huge influx of migrant Labour.

It is a case of when is push comes to shove they look at selfish self- interest.

What do the British workers matter when you can get a cheap Polish plumber or Lithuanian nanny and there's a lovely choice of Eateries in the High St.

What do the British workers matter when we can fill social care and the NHS full of migrants to keep costs down, wages down and tax lower so the selfish have a few more quid for that lovely choice of Eateries in the High St.

This Country fails its own in the EU. It is harming the care of the vulnerable, we cannot cope with migration, we cannot cope with the housing demands, the need for schools … But hey ho it keeps the price of the skinny latte down.

 

[Red Robin]

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