I would agree on this, even in Germany most people do not want further integration. Though it is difficult to imagine the Euro being successfull without the tax systems in Europe being compatible to each other. The strength of Europe in the past lay in the variety it has in such a small area - lose this and you end up with standardized norms in everything. Just the same as if you try to find a music which everyone can whistle to then you end up with something as mundane as the Eurovision song contest (which I would unreservedly vote out to) or the crap being played in supermarkets.
Off Topic The Politics Thread
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It's not been immigration but the huge scale of it in so short a time period that has caused the unrest, Cologne. Your take on the Blair Government's intentions over mass immigration is charitable. Ex-Labour ministers have admitted they thought they were getting in Labour voters from abroad and at the same time took pleasure in sticking it up the Tories (!). It backfired badly on them, and traditional Labour voters have left in droves and often moved to UKIP.
The problem is, all over Europe, politicians make their immigration plans on pieces of paper, without thought to social cohesion in their various communities. They are not responsible on the whole for the growing diaspora from Africa but if they don't get a firm grip there will be chaos, particularly in Southern Europe. The latest ECJ judgement that an illegal migrant using a false passport cannot be held in custody before being returned to her own country does nothing to help imo. It's simply weak.
A small win for Remain would be the best option; when 7 million people vote UKIP in the next election and they get 9 seats, and 10 million vote for a pro-European Tory party and they get 323 seats we might finally see some electoral reform. It can be Nigel's new campaign
The thing is the speculators can **** up our day to day lives, short, medium and long term. It's not a problem of the EU or Brexit (although the latter is giving them another opportunity to **** us up) it's the insane way we have enslaved ourselves to 'markets' in a way which gives them an entirely fictitious life of their own. The market doesn't have a conscience or consciousness, but somehow it has become all knowing, absolving humans of responsibility for their actions.
I hope you are right about pressure for change in Europe. I would be the last to deny it needs it. My reading leads me to believe that the Germans are all for it (after all they are paying for everything at the moment, and that's why they want us in as a key ally) it's the French (their government at least) who are more 'federalist'. But Hollande has the lowest approval ratings known to man, he won't last long.
Absolutely agree that this process will change everything, and not for the better (unless it really does spur EU reform). But Farage will only ever appeal to a narrow range of the electorate, too many people don't like his personality. And lots don't buy this man of the people act, they look at his background, the way he dresses (I have to pinch myself to remind myself that he is younger than me) and see the 'establishment' whatever he says (it's probably his failure to really make it in the Establishment which drives him). A couple of weeks ago, when I saw him in relatively calm discussions, I thought he could put his case coherently and reasonably. But in the clips I saw of him last night he was all over the shop, dragging his passport out, telling perfectly calm people to 'calm down' when they ask him to justify his sexual assault claims. Why is this, I wondered. Then it struck me - when under pressure his mind turns to what every heavy smoker wants - a ***. And when he can't get one he gets tetchy, through nicotine deprivation. His performance descends in direct relation to how long it is since he last smoked. Trust me, I am a nicotine addict (though not a smoker).
His biggest disadvantage is that his party is a shambles, and hardly united behind him. But they are part of the 'mad right' you mention. They have all the hallmarks of right wing populism - a series of enemies to blame for our problems (which are never our own responsibility) - the EU, immigrants, the U.K. electoral system, 'the establishment', 'liberal elites' - and an obsession with national 'identity' and 'destiny'.
I reckon all these people registering to vote are Remain voters. Leave are still trying to convert people, their core vote was always prepared and motivated, but not enough to win. Remain are just trying to get their vote out. And it's working. The polls are wrong, just like people don't like to admit they vote Tory, they keep quiet about their Remain vote because of the stridency and aggression of the Brexiters
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If it has to be Remain, I'd support a narrow win!
Agree totally that electoral reform is long overdue
If voters are faced with Corbyn's Labour, Osborne's Conservatives, Farron's Lib Dems ...then Farage won't look such a bad prospect...
Remain or Leave result, ultimately I believe the fact of the referendum will change things for the better. It's a sign of rebellion against the leaders and bureaucrats, which may just spur others of similar mind on the Continent to object, and force changes at the top.
PS You really should give up that chewing tobacco, Stan.
Actually it's snuff.
I reckon it's May's Tories. She's hidden during this campaign, even though immigration is her responsibility, and is obviously Eurosceptic enough to get the nutters onside.
Lots of speculation on this thread about who will replace Cameron, with people suggesting the names we hear in the media - Osborne, Boris, Gove, May etc.
Just my two cents, but worth remembering that the Tory Party has a very long history of picking the outsider, not any of the expected choices. Who had honestly heard of Cameron in 2005? You will remember the run-away favourite then was David Davis.
The pattern repeats. ISD, Hague, Major, Thatcher and Macmillan were certainly not favourites when they were elected as party leader. I'd go as far as saying the only firm 'favourite' to be elected leader since Eden has been Howard, and that is only because no one stood against him!
I'd be looking to the 2010 intake with cabinet experience, who is right wing, for a future leader, who is lesser known. Someone like Priti Patel would fit the bill. If you want a real outside bet, look at Ruth Davidson who leads the Scottish Tories, who to my mind, would be an excellent choice.
One thing the Tories are very good at is picking good leaders, and not hesitating to get rid of the few bad leaders who slip through the net.
Just my two cents, but worth remembering that the Tory Party has a very long history of picking the outsider, not any of the expected choices. Who had honestly heard of Cameron in 2005? You will remember the run-away favourite then was David Davis.
The pattern repeats. ISD, Hague, Major, Thatcher and Macmillan were certainly not favourites when they were elected as party leader. I'd go as far as saying the only firm 'favourite' to be elected leader since Eden has been Howard, and that is only because no one stood against him!
I'd be looking to the 2010 intake with cabinet experience, who is right wing, for a future leader, who is lesser known. Someone like Priti Patel would fit the bill. If you want a real outside bet, look at Ruth Davidson who leads the Scottish Tories, who to my mind, would be an excellent choice.
One thing the Tories are very good at is picking good leaders, and not hesitating to get rid of the few bad leaders who slip through the net.
Good post, Raving. The chances of an outsider are all the greater on the "lowest common denominator" approach, where Remain and Brexit Tories keep cancelling out their first choices.
I suspect this has been in the mind of Stan's suggestion, Theresa May, who has kept a low profile and upset no one. She's probably the biggest game player of them all, and for that reason, and because I wanted politicians to be brave enough to nail their referendum colours to the mast, she would be my last choice, but others will think differently
What is your criteria for a 'good leader'? Let's make it someone who can win two general elections. So in my lifetime you have Thatcher and Cameron (well one and a half for Cameron, the first was a coalition). For Labour you have Wilson and Blair.
One time winners - Heath and Major. Poor show labour
Leaders who became PM even though they didn't win an election - Douglas-Home, Callaghan, Brown.
Wooden spoon holders - Hague, IBS, Howard, Gaitskell (unfair, died in office), Foot, Kinnock, Smith (unfair, died in office), Milliband, Corbyn.
Strikes me that both parties are getting worse at picking a leader.
In the event of stay, Priti Patel will become leader of UKIP.
In the event of Brexit Ruth Davidson will be ineligible, as a citizen of a foreign country. Though the idea of John Redwood and Jacob Rees Mogg being lead by a Scottish lesbian rugby player is very enticing. Make it so!
Thanks for the info on Hoilett I read he himself wasn't sure he's up PL standard, which suggests he not. Shame.
Had a bit of read - I love the way people see Farage as a man of the people!! Another product of public school establishment.
Ah Well. Enjoy the debates, Euros and hope you do well next season.
I see they've extended the deadline to register for the vote. What do we think - a Cameron remainian plot to get more youngster involved?
Personally think it was a usual SNAFU - but Cameron will serendipitiously look to get a few hundred thousand more young people registered. Who lets face it aren't voting to leave
Personally think it was a usual SNAFU - but Cameron will serendipitiously look to get a few hundred thousand more young people registered. Who lets face it aren't voting to leave
The Leave campaign are seething over this. I thought they were all about democracy and the right to decide our own destiny.
I think quite a few Brits abroad are desperately trying to register to vote. I know in Spain the PM Rajoy has announced that in the event of a leave vote, British people will not have the right to live and work in Spain unless they return to the UK and apply for visas etc via the Spanish embassy in London. This has triggered thousands of people living over there to register. They are obviously not going to vote leave.
Rajoy must be laughing his t*ts off that the ploy worked!
On extension, must be right, but I wouldn't bet against all those students registering at 11.45 tomorrow night and the system folding again
Interesting thing about who is allowed to vote.
If you are citizen of an EU country other than the UK, except from Malta and Cyprus, you cannot vote no matter how long you have lived here, how much tax you have paid etc.
If you are a UK citizen who is living abroad, and have done so for 15 years or more, you cannot vote.
If you are an Irish or Commonwealth citizen who is resident in the UK (I.e. have an address), you CAN vote in the referendum. Even if you arrived last week. Hence the Malta & Cyprus exceptions.
So a newly arrived person from Sydney, Lagos or Lahore has more rights than a Pole or a Frenchman who have lived here and contributed for 15 years or a Briton, who after 45 years of working and paying tax in the UK, retired to the sun in 2001.
Who says the Empire is dead, we still care for our colonials!
Why not just make it British citizens wherever they live?
If you are citizen of an EU country other than the UK, except from Malta and Cyprus, you cannot vote no matter how long you have lived here, how much tax you have paid etc.
If you are a UK citizen who is living abroad, and have done so for 15 years or more, you cannot vote.
If you are an Irish or Commonwealth citizen who is resident in the UK (I.e. have an address), you CAN vote in the referendum. Even if you arrived last week. Hence the Malta & Cyprus exceptions.
So a newly arrived person from Sydney, Lagos or Lahore has more rights than a Pole or a Frenchman who have lived here and contributed for 15 years or a Briton, who after 45 years of working and paying tax in the UK, retired to the sun in 2001.
Who says the Empire is dead, we still care for our colonials!
Why not just make it British citizens wherever they live?
Interesting to see that a number of 'Europhile' MPs are planning to block our exit if the vote is for leaving the EU by voting against the will of the people in Parliament. Apparently, the referendum is merely 'advisory' and has no legal standing. It must be approved by a vote in Parliament and a close result may produce such a situation.
So it seems a hotch-potch of self-serving nonentities may actually place us in limbo if the 'Leave' campaign is successful.
On the other hand, the extension of time for registration, a further two days, may give the 'Leave' campaign grounds for appeal if they lose a close vote. It seems our government are firmly in the 'Couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery' class...
So it seems a hotch-potch of self-serving nonentities may actually place us in limbo if the 'Leave' campaign is successful.
On the other hand, the extension of time for registration, a further two days, may give the 'Leave' campaign grounds for appeal if they lose a close vote. It seems our government are firmly in the 'Couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery' class...
I don't think the MPs would block us living the EU, they would insist on us remaining part of the Single Market in a Norway type deal. Which seems to me to be the worst of all worlds, the Norwegians are only in it because they have consistently blocked their governments from joining properly.
The people we elect are representatives, not delegates. It's a shame that nearly all our representatives appear to be ****wits, but the alternative is the type of democracy which I think is practiced in the Kurdish city of Kobani, run by the PKK, where the people spend a lot of time in meetings. But man is it democratic.
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if we vote Leave, will that mean all the Spanish living and working here will be asked to leave? The answer is no.