Epsom -Oaks & Derby

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Harzand displaying some of his Father's characteristics in a nice victory for all involved. Nice to see DK get that once elusive Derby win having won about every other big one around the World. Well done those who sided with him.
 
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Ron said:
Free Timeform Derby Card here
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The free card is no longer available as Timeform records have been updated but I remember there being one horse on which they commented that he had St Leger stamped all over him. I think it might have been Harzand but not sure. Did anyone look at the card and spot that comment? If it was Harzand then he must be a good bet for the St Leger. Presumably the ground helped him yesterday.

When I got home last night and watched the race (recorded), my initial reaction was that it was a poor Derby. However, assuming it was Harzand that would be more suited to the St Leger, and given the problems leading up to the race, he must be a pretty good horse to have won a classic over 12f. I would like to see him miss the St Leger and go for the Arc, given the poor record of St Leger winners in the Arc.
 
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I didn't see Bustino's post but I picked out Harzand on his pedigree, that old Lost Soul family filled with honesty and stamina with a brilliant classic winner on top, plus that give in the ground.
Old Lionel Holliday might even have raised a rare smile, for both the Derby and Oaks winner are from Cleaboy female lines, Port Douglas as well. Great to see these old families raising their heads in the big races.
Harzand had a look of some of those horses about him, that is Neasham Belle, Hethersett and Netherton Maid.
 
Interesting debate on ATR regarding the Derby and the ride given to US Army Ranger. Plum last rounding the bend. I don't personally think the ride got him beat but he was left a hell of lot to do. Put it this way, if that had have been Joseph on him the armchair jockey brigade would have been lamblasting him, of that theres no doubt but Ryan Moore seems to be above criticism. I think he give the Oaks winner a poor ride but thankfully for him he was on a monster who got him out of trouble. Ryan Moore didn't really ride Epsom too great by all accounts, whether his ride lost the Derby is an argument I'd dont buy into, the better horse on the day won, but it's interesting his ride wasn't even really questioned. As I say, I'm pretty sure Joseph or AN Other would have been ridiculed by plenty.
 
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Just a thought. Whatever the horse gives at one end, it loses at the other. How do we balance using up more fuel by riding him closer, with what he's got left in the tank in the run up the straight? Nobody can possible state with any amount of certainty what the outcome would be.
 
Absolutely Cyc, it's crystal ball gazing. You could say too much fuel was used up passing the 13/14 horses in the straight to get to the winner, and therefore the guage was empty inside the last half furlong on the soft ground.

I guess my point is it was such an extreme ride it really is open to question, no matter how great the jockey supposedly is. In contrast Smullen rode the most beautiful race on the winner, showing why I think he's probably the best Flat jockey around.
 
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The two interesting factors around US Army Ranger for me were;
a) the fact that the horse was given so much to do entering the home straight and
b) the thought that he was still a bit green and hung into the rail because of the infamous Epsom camber

I am not usually to be seen championing the Ballydoyle inmates but I really do think the runner up has the more scope and if they meet again on a "proper" racecourse I would certainly be backing him to turn the tables.

There is no doubt that the winner was given the better ride and had the smoother passage. Regarding using up energy during a race I feel you use up far less in the first four furlongs than you do in the last four. I would like to see the sectionals because I definitely felt watching the race that the pacemaker slowed them down at somewhere around the six pole and then quickened again at the corner. Who those tactics were meant to aid is a mystery.
 
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I seen bits of that debate Beefy...valid points made. I've no qualms with the ride at all, but I fully agree Joseph would be slated on a global scale for coming 2nd on US Army Ranger having parked him out back. In saying that, Harzand wasn't for passing yesterday I don't think and I guess Moore was riding for a finish, which he got, it just wasn't good enough on the day.
 
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Fair play to that singer Jesse Glynn as well, she's being banging on about that Idaho on the radio for months now. Nice each way return <whistle> <laugh>
 
He got out of trouble on Minding because it turned out he only had 1 horse to beat on the day, had there been another Group 1 filly in the race he would have lost all chance.
 
stick said:
The two interesting factors around US Army Ranger for me were;
a) the fact that the horse was given so much to do entering the home straight and
b) the thought that he was still a bit green and hung into the rail because of the infamous Epsom camber

I am not usually to be seen championing the Ballydoyle inmates but I really do think the runner up has the more scope and if they meet again on a "proper" racecourse I would certainly be backing him to turn the tables.

There is no doubt that the winner was given the better ride and had the smoother passage. Regarding using up energy during a race I feel you use up far less in the first four furlongs than you do in the last four. I would like to see the sectionals because I definitely felt watching the race that the pacemaker slowed them down at somewhere around the six pole and then quickened again at the corner. Who those tactics were meant to aid is a mystery.
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Here stick
 
I'd also say that US Army Ranger looks a bit of a big girls blouse in a finish. I've no doubt he has more gears and cruising ability than this years 3 year olds but he doesn't exactly lash home at the line does he? He cruises up but then doesn't find a huge amount for pressure.

I really wouldn't want to call the Irish Derby- I wouldn't back Harzand at short prices on quick ground at the Curragh- I think you could get a bit of a turn up in that event if I'm honest.
 
Harzand looks the St Leger winner to me. No doubt O'Brien will throw half his Derby also-rans at it, with Idaho obviously looking another Doncaster type. A rematch between Harzand and the Ranger at the Curragh would be interesting. It's a stiffer track than Epsom and if it was wet beforehand there's every reason the form could be upheld but on good or quick ground you'd expect the O'Brien to improve past him. He's only had 3 runs let's not forget, so there should be more to come over his rival. Part of me thinks I'd like him to drop down in trip, something like the Eclipse could be ideal for him. The way he travels with such class and speed you could ask yourself is he just not staying well enough for a Derby trip? Reminds me a bit of Rip van Winkle or in a way. He's certainly got the gears to drop down in a trip, it's how they 'orchestrate' the respective paths of him and Minding going forward. It'd be typical of that lot to deprive us and run neither in the Eclipse!
 
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