No, you need to think about what both staying g and leaving g means, and then vote without thoughts of fear, scaremongering messages or personalities. It is possible,but you need to do the thinking. I'm not sure enough people are capable of that level of thought to return the best result for the nation's future.
Off Topic The Politics Thread
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which is....?
Personally I was leaning towards Out before the propaganda from both sides due to what I learned studying the hypothetical pros and cons in my uni days, then swayed back to being undecided but now am back on the Out side as I've not heard one argument for staying which I feel will genuinely happen.
If there's a good socialist case for remaining, then I'm definitely voting Out. Whilst I wholly support and sympathise with Col's argument for sovereignty, I have no wish to be part of a great socialist experiment.
My view is that staying in is the best option, however people should decide for themselves which way they will vote, based on research, evidence and thought. NOT - as I see happening, based on whose lies and blatherings they believe less, or who has the most Trump-like hair and rhetoric.
If you want reasons for staying, I've given loads on this thread, as have others. It's worth taking a stroll back through the pages, because you'll find a more balanced debate here than you'll get elsewhere...
That's the case for any sort of election though. Very few people care enough to put much time into thinking about it and those that do are mostly those who made their minds up at the start anyway.
The point he was making was that the EU has given rights to workers in the UK that would likely be withdrawn under a post-Brexit Johnson government. I agree with him.
No I didn't, but I thought you couldn't be arsed about this stuff anyway. There you go, always someone else to blame, same old generalisations, though I agree that Prominent Tories do all seem pretty obnoxious whatever they think of the EU. You don't speak for the English Col, you speak for people who think like you. And it's a minority of people, mostly aged over 50 - I have the facts to prove it, but I know you don't like knowledge based arguments. The English, thankfully, have a lot of different voices. One of them belongs to the person responsible for keeping us out of the Euro, Gordon Brown. Even though he is a lefty. And Scottish. So he probably doesn't count. He wants to stay in the EU though.
Let's go through this 'unelected bureaucrats' myth one more time. EU Laws and regulations are proposed by the EU Commission, every Commissioner is the nominee of elected national governments. Every law they propose has to be ratified by the elected European Parliament and the EU Council consisting of elected ministers from each of the member states. In fact the only country that I can think of who might send an unelected person to the Council is the UK, because we sometimes have Lords as ministers. I think we are unique in Europe in having a bunch of politically picked geriatrics, inbreds and clergy as a key part of our 'sovereign government'.
Does that make him a hypocritical English patriot? He fits the age demographic.
That's it? That's our destiny? It used to be to rule as much of the world as we could in as benign a way as possible to allow a few of us to get rich, now it's to ensure Westminster sets the regulations on food additives rather than a 'faceless bureaucrat'? That's a state of governance, not a destiny. Not that I want a destiny, they scare me.
Having said all of that I don't see any reason for anyone to take the figures published by the Treasury today about costs of Brexit seriously, they can't even forecast accurately 4 months in advance. Even talking about Brexit has damaged the economy, and leaving will obviously be negative, but no one can predict the numbers because no one can predict anything.
Corbyn, the hard-left Trot, also wants a Brexit deep down.
Firstly he's always wanted out, secondly post-Brexit - as the economy suffers convulsions - the more unpopular the current Government will become and the more likely Corbyn's great Socialist experiment has a chance of coming reality. If you want a Trot in number 10 vote Out.
According to TUC General Secretary Frances O'Grady:
There are significant employment rights gains that continue to accrue to UK workers as a result of our EU membership. These are wide-ranging in scope, including access to paid annual holidays, improved health and safety protection, rights to unpaid parental leave, rights to time off work for urgent family reasons, equal treatment rights for part-time, fixed-term and agency workers, rights for outsourced workers, and rights for workers’ representatives to receive information and be consulted, particularly in the context of restructuring.
No one is saying that all of these will be withdrawn overnight, but it's reasonable to assume that a post-Brexit Tory government would chip away at these rights, or what they would probably prefer to call 'red-tape' or 'Brussels bureaucracy'.
I would expect the laws on employment in the UK to track quite closely those on the Continent of Europe post-Brexit. Parliament just is not going to pass laws that make it more dangerous to be at work in the UK, for example. Of course, if there are batty liberal ideas like letting serial killers and rapists have the vote coming from Europe, these will be ignored with the disdain they deserve
Suspect those come from the ECHR which we will still be a member of post-Brexit Goldie, haven't heard Corbyn or Grove/Johnson/IDS say we're going to leave the Council of Europe which is what the ECHR is a part of.
Farage would want to leave the Council of Europe though he's unlikely to be the next PM.
Or a post-Brexit 'insert any flavour of government here' indeed.... Don't be misled ointo thinking that only the Conservatives have shafted the working man in the past. Labour did a great job with the car industry in the 70s...
There's a lot of assumptions there. None of that is certain, and sounds a little rose-tinted to me.
the only thing you KNOW is that if we stay in, workers rights will be maintained at the status quo. An exit vote throws that into uncertainty. It may remain, but we simply do not know.
TWGWTDT
Well-Known Member
No I 'm afraid I cannot, I am unable to answer you or give you the answer that you seek even. However i can state a fact that you may be able to understand
The refugee are based in France at Calais because they seek asylum in the UK that is their choice of destination. They don't want to stay in France because to live in France there are different rules of acceptance which aren't as loose as they have been in the UK. The UK over the last 20 years has been the place where most people have their dreams set on. It's IMO one big shop and the place where dreams are made of. Trouble is as we all know now it's a crock of **** and a false lie.
To work in France then you must be of some use and at least adopt the culture and understanding of the host country … IMO this is correct. In the UK you don't as you can disappear into an invisible system, must look at the state of the UK. Of course some of the clever people have settled in France from all over the world in the correct way and with the correct respect. France has areas which are without doubt not safe but on the whole is my favourite country because they fight to keep their heritage and culture at all costs … what ahas the UK done .. made the richer richer and the poorer poorer and allowed the whole place to become a **** pit where people are in massive debt in a fragile housing market. The politicians are crooks and totally ineffective and so the cycle goes on.
And then there is figures and France has taken in double the amount that England has so about time the UK did it's bit in most of Europe's eyes:
here are some figures from last year but you will see the trend
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/migrant-crisis-how-many-refugees-are-countries-actually-taking-1519100
I have actually helped in France last year with the refugee crisis which is completely manageable IMO
What we are talking about it English selfish cnuts who listen to the **** news over there and believe the crap they are fed plus they don't want anyone in the ****ty little island which is full of lost lazy idiots in debt, have little work ethic and produce very little to the world as a whole apart from starting wars which they **** up completely. I state again that the UK is not capable of wanting to help because of personal greed. I honestly hope that the exit idiots win now just the rest of Europe can watch them fail.
I agree, Tooting, the prison vote was a ECHR matter, which is why I referred to Europe. I'd prefer the UK to be signatory to a more international convention on human rights. Being dictated to by judges from Eastern European countries with poor HR records over the last 70 years has never sat well with me
How pompous are you?
You really don't like anyone crossing swords with you on here do you? What a bitchy reply!
This is what you said :
" My wife, who is genuinely undecided on how she will vote, just summed up the Brexit campaign as "we're British, it'll all be fine".
I think, and definitely hope, I'm overplaying this, but there are some really troubling undertones in all this. At the moment it's all about the enemy without, 'faceless bureaucrats', unequal treaties, US presidents with an opinion. Should Brexit lose it will be blamed on the enemy within, traitors, anti-patriots, communists, foreigners and 'unfairness'. Should they win, and things don't change for the better immediately (especially on immigration) they will shift blame by focussing even more on the enemy within. Never their fault, others always conspiring to deny us our non existent 'destiny', populism with a sinister underbelly."
You are forever preaching to everyone about generalisations and you come out with this old clap-trap.
IMO you are a classic member of the liberal elite. Enough money not to be effected by many of the issues, but determined to show how "in touch" you are with the great unwashed, whilst always taking every opportunity to run down your own Country and its history.
The EU is undemocratic. Even your fellow liberal lefty George Galloway, someone I never thought I'd agree with, says this. It is also an elitist club that is set up for the main players.
It is also on course to become a United States of Europe, something you have said you'd like to see. Fair enough, but I don't.
Where did I claim to be speaking for the English?
Yes, Brown was right to keep us out of the Euro, but that was about all he did get right. He also sold off our Gold reserves at rock bottom prices.
I'd be prepared to bet a fair amount that if it was only the English voting in the referendum, we would be leaving the EU.
You ridicule my answer to our destiny. Clearly I was answering in context to the vote on leaving the EU. In that context, our destiny for me, is very much for Parliament to be completely in charge of our Country and not unelected foreigners (oh no, I said the foreigner word. Must be a racist eh?). All you can do is go on about the fact that we once ruled a lot of the World and had an Empire. Something for the likes of you to no doubt be very ashamed.
Nothing could prevent me from getting out and voting to leave this decaying superstate.I suspect that there are a lot of people who also feel that this is a sovereignty question above all else and will come out in their millions to have their say (no doubt, in your World, these are all little Englander racists). All we get from the liberal elite are warnings of impending doom and disaster. This latest one, that we will be much poorer, FOREVER!!!, just about takes the biscuit. Europe won't stop trading with the 5th largest economy if we leave. If the EU is so wonderful and leaving would be such a disaster, why did Cameron say he needed to get substantial changes or we could leave? He never meant it and he came back with virtually nothing. Yet, it would be a disaster to leave this unchanged club? What bollocks!
The EU is falling apart with unemployment on the rise in many states. Merkel's ridiculous invitation to the third world to come and have a new life in the West has condemned Europe to decades of potential extremism.
When we voted last time we voted to join a Common Market. The EU has now grown into a failing, undemocratic, dishonest superstate that leaves very few people prosperous and nobody safe.
Unlike the tepid liberal elite in Europe and here, those of us that want our Country back care passionately about this vote. I hope it pisses down on election day and the wishy washy liberal can't be arsed to get out and vote. People like me, the ones you deride in your pompous manner, will be out in force.
Well, Chaz, I have yet to see any Brexit supporter arguing that the problem with the EU is that it over-protects employees. So I just cannot see the status quo being upset by a British Parliament on worker rights in the event of Brexit, particularly when the Tory/Lib coalition gave fathers paternity rights that are mostly not being taken up
Great post, Col, from heart and head. Ignoring the handbags between you and Stan, I suspect there are many highly motivated voters who feel like you do. Bloody hope so