Off Topic The Legacy of the Whore

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Tobes said:
Modern Unions are virtually powerless due to legislation.

The pendulum with regards to fairness in the workplace has swung waaaayyyy too far the other way since the dark days of the 70's.

Now we have the likes of zero hours contracts and millions for whom an annual pay review is something that died in 2008.

The middle band of our society has been squeezed hard in the last 20 years whilst those at the top and the bottom felt less of the pinch.

The Tories are now setting about ensuring that the bottom get a good kicking as well.

Meanwhile......the 1% continue to grow richer by the day.
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they are not... they are 90% concentrated in remaining public services... its funny how union leaders don't seem to give a flying **** about retail and zero hours while they'll take power or rial out on a strike over nothing to get a pay rise.

Modern day unions... would have the original founders spinning in graves.

actions in 1970s gave excuse to break them and thats what thatcher did so now you've got this dysfunctional situation.

Everyone should be focused on doing a good job for a fair wage and improving themselves but its actually forget the customer (us all) get your nose in trough and enjoy the party.
 
moreinjuredthanowen said:
they are not... they are 90% concentrated in remaining public services... its funny how union leaders don't seem to give a flying **** about retail and zero hours while they'll take power or rial out on a strike over nothing to get a pay rise.

Modern day unions... would have the original founders spinning in graves.

actions in 1970s gave excuse to break them and thats what thatcher did so now you've got this dysfunctional situation.

Everyone should be focused on doing a good job for a fair wage and improving themselves but its actually forget the customer (us all) get your nose in trough and enjoy the party.
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That's bollocks though.

In 2015 56% of the total UK striking days were in the private sector.
 
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moreinjuredthanowen said:
they are not... they are 90% concentrated in remaining public services... its funny how union leaders don't seem to give a flying **** about retail and zero hours while they'll take power or rial out on a strike over nothing to get a pay rise.

Modern day unions... would have the original founders spinning in graves.

actions in 1970s gave excuse to break them and thats what thatcher did so now you've got this dysfunctional situation.

Everyone should be focused on doing a good job for a fair wage and improving themselves but its actually forget the customer (us all) get your nose in trough and enjoy the party.
Click to expand...

You sound like Tory Boy in the 80's. The only thing that stands between an economy fuelled by the many, including our children and grandchildren, on minimum wage, zero-hour contract, ****e-pensioned, insecure labour is what's left of the decimated, castrated unions. No government, Tory or Labour (even under this leadership) will do anything to stop this turnaround until the workers in this country are competing with the workers in China, India and Brazil for a mess of potage every day.

Strong unions thrive in Germany and Scandinavia. You seem to be under the impression that a society exists to support a capitalist economic model: it doesn't - the economic model exists to support the society, and it has done ever since hunter-gatherers formed communities and walled-cities. Capitalism is a means, not an end.
 
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in the 80s unions has a few good reason to protest... quite a few.

these days?

you think theres many unions protesting zero hours or really loking after anyone.

thay are all self serving and the most strong ones are ones most "educated" like teacher unions.

Comparing it to workers in other third world countries is pointless and frankly somewhere like germany where an actual proper works council is matched by a desire to actually work for fair wage not just want what someone else has is also wrong.

You have me wrong.

I am saying the ****s at the top milking it are just as bad but sitting in a private job with no union where my efforts are what gets me my reward compared to a public sector worker or say a rail driver where if some dares think hmmm maybe we can do a better job for the customer here is greeted with strike action and a 10% pay hike demand... well....

true socialists created unions to protect (men at time) workers being literally worked to death for nothing. True socialist recognize exactly what you say about the economy being for society not that the economy is there to line my sections pockets and the rest well **** you you can find your own way...

Unions in the 80s led south afrians boycotts... anyone leading a qatar boycott right now? anyone?
 
carlthejackal said:
There is no doubt that the UK steel industry was in decline over decades and that this didn't just happen now or the last few years. There is no way an economy like the uk's can compete with likes of China and India in this type of industry. The simple equation of cheap labour was obvious.

The question now is what to do. It seems that the closure of port talbot for example in Wales would not not only after the 10,000 employees there but also the others dependent on it. A total of nearly 50000 people in a small town. So the equation should not just be simple economics. Nationalisation probably would not be viable. The misery of unemployment , the cost of the unemployment benefits and all associated consequences (poor health, criminality, alcoholism etc) have to be factored in.

Difficult choice for any government but let's hope that for once the people of these towns are put first.
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If we actually had a society, by that I mean one that works together for the best outcome for all, then when an industry becomes outdated or unprofitable measures would be taken to ease the transition for communities that have relied upon it for their existence.
But we don't have a society, just a disparate collection of self -interest groups whose aims occasionally coincide.
Thousands are thrown onto the dole in areas where they can't easily be assimilated or re-trained so that those at the top don't lose their profits.
Governments consider them collateral damage- like foot soldiers in a battle.
 
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moreinjuredthanowen said:
in the 80s unions has a few good reason to protest... quite a few.

these days?

you think theres many unions protesting zero hours or really loking after anyone.

thay are all self serving and the most strong ones are ones most "educated" like teacher unions.

Comparing it to workers in other third world countries is pointless and frankly somewhere like germany where an actual proper works council is matched by a desire to actually work for fair wage not just want what someone else has is also wrong.

You have me wrong.

I am saying the ****s at the top milking it are just as bad but sitting in a private job with no union where my efforts are what gets me my reward compared to a public sector worker or say a rail driver where if some dares think hmmm maybe we can do a better job for the customer here is greeted with strike action and a 10% pay hike demand... well....

true socialists created unions to protect (men at time) workers being literally worked to death for nothing. True socialist recognize exactly what you say about the economy being for society not that the economy is there to line my sections pockets and the rest well **** you you can find your own way...

Unions in the 80s led south afrians boycotts... anyone leading a qatar boycott right now? anyone?
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The vast majority of train drivers now work in the private sector, or are you one of those gimps that still rages about 'British Rail' when their train is late, even though that hasn't existed for twenty-odd years? Perhaps you're being parochial and referring to London Transport? If you are, then all can say on that is that they're behaving with the capitalist, opportunistic zeal that even Enoch Powell said he admired about the miners when they were powerful - closed shop capitalism (like the power companies) at its 'best'.
 
saintKlopp said:
If we actually had a society, by that I mean one that works together for the best outcome for all, then when an industry becomes outdated or unprofitable measures would be taken to ease the transition for communities that have relied upon it for their existence.
But we don't have a society, just a disparate collection of self -interest groups whose aims occasionally coincide.
Thousands are thrown onto the dole in areas where they can't easily be assimilated or re-trained so that those at the top don't lose their profits.
Governments consider them collateral damage- like foot soldiers in a battle.
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<applause>

wouldn't it be nice if these unions might say hey.... lads on dole we'll lobby for you... no they lobby for the "workers" as in those in jobs for better pay.. its nothing like the world unions developed in.

it'd be equally nice as i said above that those at the top might offer oh i dunno a small inducement for their fellows to invest in said areas for the good of all...

however its fine to simply blame the oligarchs and tories while the failures of labour and the liberals and self interests of unions cna be forgiven.
 
moreinjuredthanowen said:
in the 80s unions has a few good reason to protest... quite a few.

these days?

you think theres many unions protesting zero hours or really loking after anyone.

thay are all self serving and the most strong ones are ones most "educated" like teacher unions.

Comparing it to workers in other third world countries is pointless and frankly somewhere like germany where an actual proper works council is matched by a desire to actually work for fair wage not just want what someone else has is also wrong.

You have me wrong.

I am saying the ****s at the top milking it are just as bad but sitting in a private job with no union where my efforts are what gets me my reward compared to a public sector worker or say a rail driver where if some dares think hmmm maybe we can do a better job for the customer here is greeted with strike action and a 10% pay hike demand... well....

true socialists created unions to protect (men at time) workers being literally worked to death for nothing. True socialist recognize exactly what you say about the economy being for society not that the economy is there to line my sections pockets and the rest well **** you you can find your own way...

Unions in the 80s led south afrians boycotts... anyone leading a qatar boycott right now? anyone?
Click to expand...
I can see the point you're trying to make, but most private sector workers don't bother with a Union in 2016, because there's little point due to the current employment laws and the fear of rocking the boat.

Unions only ever have a decent influence in a workplace when there's a majority membership.
 
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moreinjuredthanowen said:
<applause>

wouldn't it be nice if these unions might say hey.... lads on dole we'll lobby for you... no they lobby for the "workers" as in those in jobs for better pay.. its nothing like the world unions developed in.

it'd be equally nice as i said above that those at the top might offer oh i dunno a small inducement for their fellows to invest in said areas for the good of all...

however its fine to simply blame the oligarchs and tories while the failures of labour and the liberals and self interests of unions cna be forgiven.
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I think that's the job of the politicians like
 
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Page_Moss_Kopite said:
They look after themselves and their own.
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yup.. so do unions.

wouldn't it be nice if everyone tried to actually be socialist without being communist and look after each other. might mean a few higher taxes but once upon a time someone decided an NHS was a great idea and was built for the good of all.

just maybe there's room for a guy to make money and create jobs and ALSO a guy to be able to find a job around the country and both have good public services delivered by other people who are happy to provide god service cos doing a good job is a good thing.


it'd be nice alright.... maybe when i take over in a very very bloody coup
 
moreinjuredthanowen said:
but they are tories..... and theres the root of the issue... no ****er looks after anyone
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Which brings us back to the subject of the OP.
Thatcher certainly didn't invent greed and self-interest, but she made it fashionable again. As someone old enough to have a good memory of the pre-Thatcher era, I can say that it had many faults - amongst them was the radicalisation of the union movement to sate the desire for power of some of its leaders - but there did seem to be an optimism for a fairer, more inclusive society, and that was crushed in the 80's.
 
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saintKlopp said:
Which brings us back to the subject of the OP.
Thatcher certainly didn't invent greed and self-interest, but she made it fashionable again. As someone old enough to have a good memory of the pre-Thatcher era, I can say that it had many faults - amongst them was the radicalisation of the union movement to sate the desire for power of some of its leaders - but there did seem to be an optimism for a fairer, more inclusive society, and that was crushed in the 80's.
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indeed... "greed is good"

tony blair's "things can only get better" 1997... greatest disappointment of many a young person naive enough to drink from the font of that optimism.

hence... they are all ****ers.
 
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