Off Topic Political Debate

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I think we can all see now that you make statements that you cannot back up. The more times you do it the less notice will be taken of you.
 
superhorns said:
Myself and Nigel Lawson are both examples of committed francophiles having lived in France for many years long before you. Unlike you we place importance on the UK having the ability to make its own laws. This does not exclude sensible cooperation with fellow Europeans but we dislike being dominated by obscure unelected eurocrats who are acting similar to FIFA top officials. The UK public only ever signed up to a common market, not a superstate.

I will probably buy a second home in France in the next few years, brexit or not. The world will not stop revolving if the UK left this ailing organisation.
You may not have been to the UK for a while but I can assure you most people have access to all kinds of media.

If the population of the UK dislike the government they can vote to change which is a luxury that you do not possess in changing the fiddling eurocrats.
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What are the Euro elections for if not for changing governments ? One of the problems is that most people do not know where their laws come from and unpopular ones are nearly always blamed on Europe. In contrast to national governments the European parliament does not have a direct mouthpiece to communicate as with eg. national newspapers. Laws which are made at the European level are often modified or even strengthened by national governments into forms which are barely recognizable when they reach the man in the street. Take the anti smoking laws as an example. Those in the UK. are enforced far more strictly than they have to be. In Germany people still smoke in designated areas in railway stations - in Belgium in all stations which are without roof. Berlin still has smoking pubs, Cologne and Hamburg, don't yet they are all responding to supposedly the same law.
 
colognehornet said:
What are the Euro elections for if not for changing governments ? One of the problems is that most people do not know where their laws come from and unpopular ones are nearly always blamed on Europe. In contrast to national governments the European parliament does not have a direct mouthpiece to communicate as with eg. national newspapers. Laws which are made at the European level are often modified or even strengthened by national governments into forms which are barely recognizable when they reach the man in the street. Take the anti smoking laws as an example. Those in the UK. are enforced far more strictly than they have to be. In Germany people still smoke in designated areas in railway stations - in Belgium in all stations which are without roof. Berlin still has smoking pubs, Cologne and Hamburg, don't yet they are all responding to supposedly the same law.
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Cologne, I believe the majority of the electorate of the EU do not wish to finish up with a superstate which incidentally is the only answer to the Euro problems. Please tell me who is going to stop this juggernaut?
 
superhorns said:
Cologne, I believe the majority of the electorate of the EU do not wish to finish up with a superstate which incidentally is the only answer to the Euro problems. Please tell me who is going to stop this juggernaut?
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I should have said Euroland not EU
 
superhorns said:
Cologne, I believe the majority of the electorate of the EU do not wish to finish up with a superstate which incidentally is the only answer to the Euro problems. Please tell me who is going to stop this juggernaut?
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If the majority of the electorate do not want this so called superstate then they can change it through the ballot box into something more palatable - or is that so difficult to understand ? But as long as people are only turning up for euro elections with the same turnout as if they were voting for parish councillors then nothing will change. No country wants to give up sovereignty completely - the French want to remain French, the Germans German and so on - Europe will always have its differences and what works for the Netherlands would not work for Austria and so on. Historically the French gave us the Enlightenment, the Italians the Rennaissance, the Germans the Reformation and the printing press, the English the industrial revolution and a common World language. None of these could have been produced in the same way in a different place and they have all contributed to European history. A good Europe is one in which the Germans do what they do best, the French what they do best and so on, in exactly the same way as you have different positions on a football pitch.
 
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colognehornet said:
If the majority of the electorate do not want this so called superstate then they can change it through the ballot box into something more palatable - or is that so difficult to understand ? But as long as people are only turning up for euro elections with the same turnout as if they were voting for parish councillors then nothing will change. No country wants to give up sovereignty completely - the French want to remain French, the Germans German and so on - Europe will always have its differences and what works for the Netherlands would not work for Austria and so on. Historically the French gave us the Enlightenment, the Italians the Rennaissance, the Germans the Reformation and the printing press, the English the industrial revolution and a common World language. None of these could have been produced in the same way in a different place and they have all contributed to European history. A good Europe is one in which the Germans do what they do best, the French what they do best and so on, in exactly the same way as you have different positions on a football pitch.
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In the unavoidable forthcoming German dominated superstate nation states will lose the ability to control tax and spending and much more of the decision making currently enjoyed. There will also be a joint defence policy. I'm not convinced most of the electorate want this.
 
oldfrenchhorn said:
Just reporting the views of a couple of hundred people SH and w_y. It might well be true that people who have moved over here are far more outward looking or else they wouldn't have made the move. It is not the French lecturing the Brits at all. It is a common cause to see some of the problems that exist resolved, and we cannot see how the Brexit supporters have shown that they are interested in anything outside the UK. Yes pay up some money every now and again, but the contribution could be so much more with the country's wealth and experience. As I pointed out some time ago, no one expects a EU Army for very many years, so that is not even a point worth discussing.

The people I was talking to cover all sorts of ages, trades as well as retired. None of us are politicians, so we only say what we see, but we do read both UK and French news, so we probably get a more balanced view than someone who only ever sees one biased UK paper. Everyone of us can see problems with the EU and the way it is slow to change, but exactly the same can be said about the UK.
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Yeah, thanks for that - surprised you did not use a "Little Englander" jibe. I will not stoop to that level.
 
wear_yellow said:
Yeah, thanks for that - surprised you did not use a "Little Englander" jibe. I will not stoop to that level.
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Some of those expats have probably been there 5 minutes and turned into international explorers!!

Some of the most clueless people I have met have unfortunately been expats in France, well out of their depths.
 
superhorns said:
In the unavoidable forthcoming German dominated superstate nation states will lose the ability to control tax and spending and much more of the decision making currently enjoyed. There will also be a joint defence policy. I'm not convinced most of the electorate want this.
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For God sake read through texts before you reply without immediately going into this same old 'party' position every time. If the electorate do not want this superstate they will prevent it. We are talking about a coming together of democracies here - the electorate are not mindless puppets and they will create the 'Europe' which they want if they have the initiative to do it. All of this crap about a German dominated superstate is quite frankly getting on my nerves - it can be prevented at any time by a combination of say Britain and France. Do you still think that Germany is full of blond teutonic monsters who have no other wish than to dominate Europe ? Try getting up to date on this - when were you last in Germany ? Their School system is average, their health system as well, the public transport system is very run down, a third of all workers here are working for less than the French minimum wage. I could go on here but won't bother because the chances of you actually reading and understanding are remote.
 
colognehornet said:
You manage to put your own slant on everything W_Y. The reason for Strasbourg is that it was once German, is now French and represents the reconciliation between the 2. It is truly multi national and multi lingual and thus represents the European ideal - in the same way that Brussels was chosen ie. that it is multi lingual. But it doesn't really matter where a second capital is - if it were in Germany there would be uproar, the same goes for anywhere else, and if it were in London then it would be interpreted as a takeover bid. In the modern World you need partners and trade blocks - Britain's sovereignty would be far more threatened by closer links to the USA. and China is much too big to be talking about a special relationship. Geographically Germany and France are always going to be there - just over the water and it is only with them that we can have an 'equal' eye to eye relationship. Yes, the EU. needs reforming but this can only be done from within, and through the Europeans themselves taking their institution back by always holding it to account for its actions. The idea of a European super state has as much opposition in Germany or France or Spain as it does in the UK. but in those countries they understand that throwing all of your toys out of the pram when things don't go your way is no option.
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There can be no justification for having to have 2 capitals and have the huge expense and disruption of moving hundreds of people - it just demonstrates that the EU cannot and will not reform. Your comments merely demonstrate that. I don't really care what country the EU Parliament, but to have 2 is totally ridiculous. Thanks, I will carry on throwing my toys out, especially when I see the type of absolute crap being discussed today over the refugee crisis - letting Turkey swap and illegal immigrant for a refugee from a camp and giving Turkey billions for doing it - it is total madness and will result in even more chaos. This is the work of people who are so out of touch with the real world that they cannot see their own folly. I am fearful that the EU will be torn apart by this refugee problem and Britain will be the least of your problems.
 
colognehornet said:
For God sake read through texts before you reply without immediately going into this same old 'party' position every time. If the electorate do not want this superstate they will prevent it. We are talking about a coming together of democracies here - the electorate are not mindless puppets and they will create the 'Europe' which they want if they have the initiative to do it. All of this crap about a German dominated superstate is quite frankly getting on my nerves - it can be prevented at any time by a combination of say Britain and France. Do you still think that Germany is full of blond teutonic monsters who have no other wish than to dominate Europe ? Try getting up to date on this - when were you last in Germany ? Their School system is average, their health system as well, the public transport system is very run down, a third of all workers here are working for less than the French minimum wage. I could go on here but won't bother because the chances of you actually reading and understanding are remote.
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The Germans are currently dominating the financial institutions which control the eurozone. You should ask the Greeks, Italians Portuguese of their opinion of the Germans, they have never been so disliked since WW2. The electorate will not have an opportunity to vote against the superstate, because it will never be on the agenda.
 
oldfrenchhorn said:
You will not find that I have used it w_y. Unlike the guy that you called a WUM, I try to be polite.
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Well accusing me of not understanding or having a bigger view because I do not view other countries media and I only read one British paper is hardly polite and I said I was surprised you did not use it as it is certainly insinuated.
 
wear_yellow said:
Well accusing me of not understanding or having a bigger view because I do not view other countries media and I only read one British paper is hardly polite and I said I was surprised you did not use it as it is certainly insinuated.
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If you took it that way it was not intended. It was an attempt to show that people over here take a rather different view as they see many comments from foreign commentators that I doubt that many people in the UK would want to read..
 
superhorns said:
The Germans are currently dominating the financial institutions which control the eurozone. You should ask the Greeks, Italians Portuguese of their opinion of the Germans, they have never been so disliked since WW2. The electorate will not have an opportunity to vote against the superstate, because it will never be on the agenda.
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Are you quoting here from your extensive travels in Italy, Portugal and Greece here and your conversations with those people with regard to Germany ? Or just quoting your own opinions as irrefutable fact (as normal) ?
 
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colognehornet said:
Are you quoting here from your extensive travels in Italy, Portugal and Greece here and your conversations with those people with regard to Germany ? Or just quoting your own opinions as irrefutable fact (as normal) ?
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Do you ever watch the TV or read newspapers?
 
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