Off Topic The Politics Thread
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I'd like to be wrong. I just doubt 70%+ of the electorate care enough to vote on it. Cameron backing the Stay campaign could be a huge boost for the Leave, I think, as a sort of protest vote.
Had a look on Paddy Power and they're offering 6/5 on above 60.5% turnout, 8/13 under.
2/5 stay, 7/4 go
2/5 stay, 7/4 go
Why spoil a good story and spurn an opportunity to put a jingoistic spin on everything with a few facts and figures and truths about the EU? Are you a closet revolutionary Communist railing against everything we hold dear in this country? When I see the tripe that our press come out with, sadly not confined to their hatred of the EU, it reminds me of dear old Jim Hacker becoming the PM on the back of a well-chosen rant to save the great British banger. And the masses still fall for it every time. It's a bit like an American Presidential election where every candidate only needs to learn the words 'God bless America'. And we somehow feel superior to them.
Desperately waiting for the 'debate' where they all respect each other's views to degenerate into the usual negative smear campaigning by both sides of the Conservative party. Gloves looked like they were beginning to come off. Mark my words. There will be scandals pretty soon. After all it's only another 5 days to the next edition of the Sunday tabloids.
I was in the minority of people who wanted out in what is a young but pretty well educated office. I think most of the great unwashed will go for Out if they can put down the fried chicken and Sky remote to vote. Still expect In to win
what do they actually do with that 150 billion euros sb
do they build hospitals/schools etc
do they spend it on unemployment benefits
maybe they spend it on an army
what do euro mps get paid
how much is spent just to have a European parliament
do they really have rules on the length of cucumbers and the amount of bend a banana can have
what does the European parliament do that cant be done in the European nations parliaments
"Taking a leap in the dark" is a fair statement. "If they have the nerve" brings in connotations of fear and cowardice, suggesting that they won't have the guts to do it. It's a far more provocative turn of phrase, and that's what the whole campaign can well do without. This is an extremely important vote that will have huge impacts on our nation for decades to come. It shouldn't be driven by fear, rhetoric, jingoism or as a protest against David Cameron. It's too important for that.
EDIT: I've just had a leaflet put through my door. From the Out campaign, it states, in huge red letters, that if we don't leave the EU, the NHS will die. Unbelievable. Blames the EU for everything even remotely negative that's happened in the past twenty years.
That's made my mind up, then. I'm not going to allow such pathetic, fearful, ignorant people to hijack this vital vote for their own ends. I'm voting to stay in.
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TWGWTDT
Well-Known Member
I would love the UK to vote Out as it would reflect exactly how stupid our country has become.
Great country of ours want to tie up your life in a pile of ****
Stupid housing market full of corruption and a evil banking sector that has been allowed to get away with it.
The culture is rotten to the core
I spend quality time throughout Europe and our culture thinks it's a corrupt place crowded with Robles people
Closed minds of the average UK people damaged by Thatcher and too dim to see what has happened
I'm off to really enjoy the stupid circus that is about to take place
Great country of ours want to tie up your life in a pile of ****
Stupid housing market full of corruption and a evil banking sector that has been allowed to get away with it.
The culture is rotten to the core
I spend quality time throughout Europe and our culture thinks it's a corrupt place crowded with Robles people
Closed minds of the average UK people damaged by Thatcher and too dim to see what has happened
I'm off to really enjoy the stupid circus that is about to take place
Digby Jones, Former Director of the CBI and Trade Minister under Gordon Brown expressing his concerns about the EU on Radio 5 Business News today:
1. The current 200 companies writing in support of staying IN, will have little support from the myriad of small businesses around the country who will say, it's ok for big business with its huge resources of researchers and lobbyists to mould the EU into what they want it to be, but for small firms all they get from the undemocratic, unconnected group of individuals in Brussels who have never done a day's business work in their entire lives, is red tape that makes daily life difficult, cuts profits and stifles ability to grow in the face of big competition from India, Far East etc
2. Re Trade War if we come out - Germany sells 1 million cars to the UK in addition to all the white goods, Bosch, Miele etc, 90% of our trains are made in Dusseldorf, and we drink more champagne than the French do. Inconceivable that we won't get a Free Trade Agreement if we come out of the EU.
3. One of the key reasons Europe want us IN, is that we are an outward-looking country, with an amazing ability to engage with the rest of the world. We are the most open market in Europe, with the practice of free trade at our core - compare that with the protectionist French
4. All concessions that Cameron says he has achieved from the EU are subject to a vote of the European Parliament after the referendum - thus the EU has a veto.
5. No one has provided a picture of what the EU will look like if we stay in. At present, it is marching valiantly toward the 1970's, refusing to engage with the world, sclerotic at to how it creates wealth. Instead of giving a Greek lad the skills to be employable anywhere, it would rather subsidise his olive growiing so he can buy a BMW, even though this will lead eventually to his bankruptcy. Camerons is saying we must stay in a "reformed" EU but there is absolutely no evidence that the EU will, or even wants to, reform.
6. Digby Jones sat in Brussels both as a Trade Minister, and as CBI leader, and says it's a myth that the UK have influence there - always apparent that it's an organisation created by the French and funded by the Germans
7. The referendum result will come down to 1. immigration and 2. gut instinct. If we stay in, the blinding question is - will the EU become globally competitive over the next generation. At the moment, there is every sign it will not
1. The current 200 companies writing in support of staying IN, will have little support from the myriad of small businesses around the country who will say, it's ok for big business with its huge resources of researchers and lobbyists to mould the EU into what they want it to be, but for small firms all they get from the undemocratic, unconnected group of individuals in Brussels who have never done a day's business work in their entire lives, is red tape that makes daily life difficult, cuts profits and stifles ability to grow in the face of big competition from India, Far East etc
2. Re Trade War if we come out - Germany sells 1 million cars to the UK in addition to all the white goods, Bosch, Miele etc, 90% of our trains are made in Dusseldorf, and we drink more champagne than the French do. Inconceivable that we won't get a Free Trade Agreement if we come out of the EU.
3. One of the key reasons Europe want us IN, is that we are an outward-looking country, with an amazing ability to engage with the rest of the world. We are the most open market in Europe, with the practice of free trade at our core - compare that with the protectionist French
4. All concessions that Cameron says he has achieved from the EU are subject to a vote of the European Parliament after the referendum - thus the EU has a veto.
5. No one has provided a picture of what the EU will look like if we stay in. At present, it is marching valiantly toward the 1970's, refusing to engage with the world, sclerotic at to how it creates wealth. Instead of giving a Greek lad the skills to be employable anywhere, it would rather subsidise his olive growiing so he can buy a BMW, even though this will lead eventually to his bankruptcy. Camerons is saying we must stay in a "reformed" EU but there is absolutely no evidence that the EU will, or even wants to, reform.
6. Digby Jones sat in Brussels both as a Trade Minister, and as CBI leader, and says it's a myth that the UK have influence there - always apparent that it's an organisation created by the French and funded by the Germans
7. The referendum result will come down to 1. immigration and 2. gut instinct. If we stay in, the blinding question is - will the EU become globally competitive over the next generation. At the moment, there is every sign it will not
I always thought he was smart. I'm not so sure reading that:
No empirical data to back this up, so at best it's a guess, at worst he's projecting his own view on the situation, taking that as fact, and trying to make people fear for the many small business and their poor owners.
These matters only come into play if we have an alternate source of these goods without importing them. We don't. So the demand for luxury cars, white goods, and fizzy wine will mean this is irrelevant.
That will have no bearing on the vote. If we are so outward looking, what does it matter whether we are in or out? The EU will want to trade with is wherever we sit. So backs up point two, but otherwise it's another irrelevant point.
He's assuming that the negotiations over the past year won't result in change, but he's also saying in point 5 that it'll change for the worse. He really needs to make his mind up here. Either the EU are open for change or they are not. If they are open to change, then that change can go in either direction. He's also assuming that none of the other countries want to change. Sure France possibly, and maybe Germany, but that's two nations only. The others clearly want a good deal from the EU, and by having a precedent set that France and Germany don't always get their own way, there's far more chance of that happening.
If we stay in, the EU looks like it does today. More scaremongering, trying to paint the EU as Frankenstein's Monster.
Personal opinion does not equal facts. Again, empirical data would have helped his cause. I'm guessing he has none.
Nobody knows what will happen in the global market in ten years time. If Digby Jones did, he's win the lottery every week. And bringing immigration back as the 'key' policy is scaremongering yet again, playing to the basest fears of the least intelligent amongst the voters. He should be ashamed of using his privileged position to stir up such matters.
No empirical data to back this up, so at best it's a guess, at worst he's projecting his own view on the situation, taking that as fact, and trying to make people fear for the many small business and their poor owners.
These matters only come into play if we have an alternate source of these goods without importing them. We don't. So the demand for luxury cars, white goods, and fizzy wine will mean this is irrelevant.
That will have no bearing on the vote. If we are so outward looking, what does it matter whether we are in or out? The EU will want to trade with is wherever we sit. So backs up point two, but otherwise it's another irrelevant point.
He's assuming that the negotiations over the past year won't result in change, but he's also saying in point 5 that it'll change for the worse. He really needs to make his mind up here. Either the EU are open for change or they are not. If they are open to change, then that change can go in either direction. He's also assuming that none of the other countries want to change. Sure France possibly, and maybe Germany, but that's two nations only. The others clearly want a good deal from the EU, and by having a precedent set that France and Germany don't always get their own way, there's far more chance of that happening.
If we stay in, the EU looks like it does today. More scaremongering, trying to paint the EU as Frankenstein's Monster.
Personal opinion does not equal facts. Again, empirical data would have helped his cause. I'm guessing he has none.
Nobody knows what will happen in the global market in ten years time. If Digby Jones did, he's win the lottery every week. And bringing immigration back as the 'key' policy is scaremongering yet again, playing to the basest fears of the least intelligent amongst the voters. He should be ashamed of using his privileged position to stir up such matters.
The point he is making about goods is that if there is a trade war, import taxes will hit German and French industries harder than it will hit the UK
Of course, there is much opinion here. But educated opinion.
The truth is that we will pay slightly more for a new BMW than we do at the moment in the event of an Out vote. Which will be true, however people will still buy BMWs because they want to, and there's no comparable British alternative. Same with champagne. The simple fact is that Germany is a far more productive market than the UK for these kind of goods, and so will remain strong irrespective of the vote. It's utterly irrelevant to whether or not we should stay in or leave, and I suspect that he knows this. It's a nice thing to claim on his side of the debate, however it's equally good for the Pro-EU side when you start bringing reality into the equation.
As for opinion? That's perfectly fine. But he should couch it in less fearful language, because he does his position no good playing to the alleged fears of the masses without evidence to back it up.
There most definitely are alternatives to German cars, British built and outside EU, and import taxes will make BMW's, VW's etc less competitive. Coming on the back of the recent VW scandal, it is just what the German automotive industry won't want.
There are also most definitely British, and other, alternatives to champagne if prices go up on French wines through a trade war
As for evidence supporting Digby Jones's views, there are no grounds for saying it doesn't exist - he does not have a reputation for making wild and unsubstantiated allegations. But this morning, he wasn't putting in a legal submission. As I said, I have merely paraphrased his radio interview that lasted 4 or 5 minutes.
Totally agree - and it's interesting how the out camp keeps saying that all the In camp has on its side is scaremongering... I'd prefer both sides stopped resorting to it quite honestly but I doubt it will happen.
The only source of cars that will compete with BMW/Mercedes are Audi (German) VW (German) Alfa Romeo (Italian) or Japanese models like Lexus or the top-end Mazda and Toyota marques. All this does is level the field, so that the import taxes for a BMW matches that we already happily pay for a Lexus. And the only realistic alternative to champagne is Prosecco, which is Italian and therefore will be hit as much.
Interesting that you admit to paraphrasing Digby Jones. How much of your own stance has impacted the words you used in paraphrasing what he said? Is there a chance you can post his words, so we can see?
TWGWTDT
Well-Known Member
Stock Check required IMO
England will fail without Europe big time, Most have no idea where the goods in the Big Shop even come from
England has no chance of looking after itself has limited skills that are way behind our European partners … Way behind
We don't even produce enough power or water whereas the French make enough to sell
English people are in debt generally and in a way that cannot be reinvented … in fact they want you to spend more to control you
England are great at starting wars and crap at finishing them
English Culture away from a just a few quality cities is in big trouble and the are massive areas of divide across the island. No one can agree and most don't care anyway. The NHS is the one quality thing yet it is in a bad way as it looks like it can't be managed
Anyone who travels across Europe will see it very quickly.
It will be a Circus nothing more as Big Business will say what happens not our government
England will fail without Europe big time, Most have no idea where the goods in the Big Shop even come from
England has no chance of looking after itself has limited skills that are way behind our European partners … Way behind
We don't even produce enough power or water whereas the French make enough to sell
English people are in debt generally and in a way that cannot be reinvented … in fact they want you to spend more to control you
England are great at starting wars and crap at finishing them
English Culture away from a just a few quality cities is in big trouble and the are massive areas of divide across the island. No one can agree and most don't care anyway. The NHS is the one quality thing yet it is in a bad way as it looks like it can't be managed
Anyone who travels across Europe will see it very quickly.
It will be a Circus nothing more as Big Business will say what happens not our government
TWGWTDT
Well-Known Member
You won't beat German Auto Engineering ever and you will never beat French Auto Design … these are facts they are years ahead
Toyoto/ Honda are brilliant cars but will never carry the Kudos the German's have never… why do they change their designs every few years
It's a stupid point
Nissan is Renault as is Dacia
This will be about closed stupid people who haven't even been abroad I bet and haven't seen the world
Toyoto/ Honda are brilliant cars but will never carry the Kudos the German's have never… why do they change their designs every few years
It's a stupid point
Nissan is Renault as is Dacia
This will be about closed stupid people who haven't even been abroad I bet and haven't seen the world
As well as the Japanese cars you mention, Jaguar, Range Rover and Bentley would benefit from a tax on EU cars
As to wines, Prosecco? Are you joking? Are you ignorant about the rise in English sparkling wines? There are huge vineyards in the South of England and they're winning prizes. They're better than a lot of Champagne houses and would be given a huge boost if there was a tariff on French wines
I have transcribed the Digby Jones interview accurately. You can listen to it yourself. It's on a podcast for today on BBC 5 Live - 606, Wake Up to Money. The Digby Jones interview is approximately 33 minutes and 50 seconds in.
I have no idea whether this link will work but I'll put it in anyway:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07172yh#play
Speaking personally, I've been around the world many, many times on business. I used to do a lot of long haul like Stan. I've found places that I'd like to live in. Sydney, Port of Spain and Christchurch NZ would be high on my list. But I've never come across a country that suited me as well as this one. Not denigrating any others, just my personal view