I'll echo that but the sensitivity that presumably occurred on other threads just passed me by.
The Adam Johnson Trial
- Thread starter - Doing The Lambert Walk
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I think this case is an interesting one in terms of the national psyche. I don't see a lot here which is massively newsworthy. Beloved hero of the nation deflowers young maiden - scandal! But that isn't why this is causing such uproar that it has filled over 50 pages on the Sunderland board and appears to have led to the site crashing on a couple of occasions. I used the word fetish to describe Western attitudes towards wealth earlier, but now I'm going to apply it to Johnson himself. Before I say anything more, I deplore what Johnson has done - this is more an exploration of our (and I include myself in this ) strong need to discuss it.
At this stage, you may want to jump out and type tl;dr
So, what do I mean by Johnson as fetish? Well, he has appeared at a moment in our history where we are almost hysterically obsessed with child abuse - yet all of the perpetrators are either dead or pathetic old men. This is important for two reasons: 1) they don't make effective fetishes on which we can vent our feelings and 2) we don't see ourselves in them. Don't take offense!
1) The first role of the national villain is to reinforce our sense of self by re-affirming what is other. When we see old men who have abused girls (or boys) this is very easy to reject and too easy to pass off as intrinsically alien in its belief system to the way we think. As such, we are able to affirm that, yes, we are all the same because people like Jimmy Saville is a disgusting human being. Clearly. He even looked disgusting. But he is dead - so we can't really do much apart from paint him as a totem and burn him in a collective fire of disapproval. He can't act as a physical fetish because we know our vitriol is wasted. Rolf Harris doesn't work because he seems to old and pathetic. Johnson is perfect as he is already a part of the Punch and Judy world of football. We already know how to hate him and so we can switch gear easily.
Hating Johnson enables us to reassert a morality we are unsure about in a changing and increasingly sexual world. Which leads me to part 2.
2) Sexual desire is not something which is altered by evolution. Instead, our responses to women have been trained through socialisation - an act 40,000 years in the making - but necessarily repeated with every child in every generation. This leads to a problem: We feel is and we feel repulsed by it. We have urges for it - but are horrified by those urges. I am a good man, we say, so why do I feel this urge. The urge may be a slight prickling of heat when you see a precariously perky breast or it might just be the awareness of desires for others from within what is otherwise a loyal marriage. Regardless, here we become Iago in our rejection of Othello. Our stated aims are not, perhaps, the whole truth. We reject the other not for fear of what it will do to us but fear that we are like it already. Hysterical rejection of Johnson is a way of telling ourselves: I am not like him.
So, therefore, Johnson's plight is our gain. He did something wrong which our egos might have driven us to, if we had been enabled to grow ego without superego. Watching him suffer vindicates our choices - and our rejection of him serves as catharsis for us. Did we look at Britney Spears dressed as a schoolgirl in all innocence? What on EARTH is Ariana Grande?
The world is sexually depraved now. Especially for those of us who are old. Collectived rejection of Johnson helps it all make a bit more sense - for a while.
Sorry, don't expect anyone to read that. Just pondering.
At this stage, you may want to jump out and type tl;dr
So, what do I mean by Johnson as fetish? Well, he has appeared at a moment in our history where we are almost hysterically obsessed with child abuse - yet all of the perpetrators are either dead or pathetic old men. This is important for two reasons: 1) they don't make effective fetishes on which we can vent our feelings and 2) we don't see ourselves in them. Don't take offense!
1) The first role of the national villain is to reinforce our sense of self by re-affirming what is other. When we see old men who have abused girls (or boys) this is very easy to reject and too easy to pass off as intrinsically alien in its belief system to the way we think. As such, we are able to affirm that, yes, we are all the same because people like Jimmy Saville is a disgusting human being. Clearly. He even looked disgusting. But he is dead - so we can't really do much apart from paint him as a totem and burn him in a collective fire of disapproval. He can't act as a physical fetish because we know our vitriol is wasted. Rolf Harris doesn't work because he seems to old and pathetic. Johnson is perfect as he is already a part of the Punch and Judy world of football. We already know how to hate him and so we can switch gear easily.
Hating Johnson enables us to reassert a morality we are unsure about in a changing and increasingly sexual world. Which leads me to part 2.
2) Sexual desire is not something which is altered by evolution. Instead, our responses to women have been trained through socialisation - an act 40,000 years in the making - but necessarily repeated with every child in every generation. This leads to a problem: We feel is and we feel repulsed by it. We have urges for it - but are horrified by those urges. I am a good man, we say, so why do I feel this urge. The urge may be a slight prickling of heat when you see a precariously perky breast or it might just be the awareness of desires for others from within what is otherwise a loyal marriage. Regardless, here we become Iago in our rejection of Othello. Our stated aims are not, perhaps, the whole truth. We reject the other not for fear of what it will do to us but fear that we are like it already. Hysterical rejection of Johnson is a way of telling ourselves: I am not like him.
So, therefore, Johnson's plight is our gain. He did something wrong which our egos might have driven us to, if we had been enabled to grow ego without superego. Watching him suffer vindicates our choices - and our rejection of him serves as catharsis for us. Did we look at Britney Spears dressed as a schoolgirl in all innocence? What on EARTH is Ariana Grande?
The world is sexually depraved now. Especially for those of us who are old. Collectived rejection of Johnson helps it all make a bit more sense - for a while.
Sorry, don't expect anyone to read that. Just pondering.
Good post SS, very well explained idea. Definitely worth reading, even if you don't expect people to do so.
I've studied a bit of sociology/psychology so it was a bit more accessible to me I guess. I can completely understand your reaction though Beefy, because it's pretty heavy going and lots of jargon.
I got the just of it. So fine by me
I was 17 when Britney was in a school uniform though....
I was a bit older than that...I thought Britney was amazingly sexy when she first hit the scene, but not because she was in school uniform, just because she was Britney and would have been sexy in a hessian sack. The school uniform was pretty provocative though, and certainly makes you question a society that will happily portray children as sex objects, whilst simultaneously looking for someone to demonise for taking their desires out of the imaginary into the physical world.I got the just of it. So fine by me
I was 17 when Britney was in a school uniform though....
I got the just of it. So fine by me
I was 17 when Britney was in a school uniform though....
I think she was in the school uniform in 98? Too lazy to look it up... but I wasn't all that much older.
Can anyone explain Ariana Grande to me? It is a weird perversion of nature, whatever it is.
Sometimes a "like" just isn't enough. Great, great post.
The way I see what you are writing about is that we are all constantly tested by our own subconscious minds in terms of our fitness to be a part of a civilised society. Not only sexual urges but baser, more primitive ones crop up to put our normal, humdrum lives into some kind of perspective. Those "what if..." or "if only..." moments arrive in flashes without invitation but most of the time we can suppress them easily. Sometimes, though, that urge to push someone in front of a train or simply indulge in fantasies about such and such a person require more conscious thought to rationalise away. I would like to think that if the kind of temptation that comes with being a Premier League footballer put itself in my path I could deal with it, but I don't know with 100% certainty that I could. As you say, it's easy to condemn the Adam Johnsons and Ched Evans of this world, because we won't ever be in that position ourselves. The big question is, does that tiny degree of uncertainty that most of us have about this actually make us stronger, or is it the reaction of society to those like Johnson who succumb?
And by the way SS, you really must write more. There's a novel in there somewhere!
Sex sales. You only have to look at all the ads. It's a easy way to get something noticed so companies always go for it.
Nobody can explain Ariana Grande, I think it's classified. I reckon she was grown in a jar though especially for kids TV. She actually has an amazing voice underneath all the cheesy pop that she used to do and will probably still be around in years to come as a genuinely good singer...I know this because I have a 12 year old daughter who makes me listen to stuff
With the job I have. I have been tested in the same kind of way. There was a underage girl that I helped train (as youngsters can now work out) who became a little to attached to me for my liking. I could have easily taken advantage of it but I didn't. Why? Because the thought of sleeping with a underage girl doesn't excite me. I have also been brought up to understand the law and also respect my gf far too much to cheat.
Johnson instead of using his brain and realising he is a adult,took the easy way of taking advantage of a nieve young girl to get what he wanted. He also cheated on his partner who he had a child with. I could never do that even if I was in his position.
That is why our society functions, because people like you know where the lines should be drawn in our current value system. Others aren't as morally strong, and transgress those lines which gives the rest of us a target to vilify when they get caught out. You'll notice I say current value system as this has changed over the years, and is different in other countries and societies.
Sexual maturity was seen as the important thing in the past, now it is emotional maturity that matters, and we recognise that by establishing an arbitrary minimum age for sexual activity. I expect plenty of us come across a situation where desire has to be tempered by what we know to be right, and in making that choice, we affirm and strengthen the value system that we choose to live within.
I have three daughters so I'm glad that the majority of us are fairly self policing when it comes to acting on sexual desire, otherwise I'd have to keep them locked away.
Don't you feel though that in this age of the Internet etc that it has made it easier for young children to be groomed. Also the hero worship by youngsters of people constantly in the limelight who become their idles makes them a tempting target for these people.
They take advantage of the situation as has been proved and it is time these youngsters were protected properly. You would expect an adult especially with children of their own to more than comply especially with fame on their side to educate the naive youngsters to help them become aware.
Just imagine in a few years time how Johnson will feel if something similar happens to his daughter!! Has he got to wait that long to understand? I hope not..........
They take advantage of the situation as has been proved and it is time these youngsters were protected properly. You would expect an adult especially with children of their own to more than comply especially with fame on their side to educate the naive youngsters to help them become aware.
Just imagine in a few years time how Johnson will feel if something similar happens to his daughter!! Has he got to wait that long to understand? I hope not..........
My kids have been thoroughly educated in "safe" Internet use by me, they have also been brought up to have the kind of relationship with me that enables them to talk openly about pretty much anything...that keeps secrets from being secrets that can be exploited by other people. The flip side of the internet making it easier to groom kids is that kids can be very well informed about what is acceptable behaviour, and can be taught to recognise inappropriate behaviour when they come across it.
I suppose what I'm saying is it comes down to parental guidance and support to try and keep kids safe, and that has never changed.
(I did like your spelling of idols though, as it sums up an awful lot of the "celebrities" that kids do look up to.)
Now at Roma, after a great spell at Genoa, of course. Shame he didn't work out for us, but yes, I understand he had strong views on tourbus games. He was more a Ludo or backgammon guy, I heard.
I read it, a little wordy and I don't think I fully agree. The law draws a hard line between what is right and wrong, whereas in reality we know that sexual consent is not that simple. But the law must be there to protect girls despite the fact that 50% or 70% may fall into that category people consider mature enough to make those informed decisions. Johnson is not a monster and I think comparing him to savile et al understates just how depraved the targets of operation yew tree. Systematically grooming abusing young girls over years and years.
Johnson is clearly a scumbag and also a criminal. He is incredibly stupid and deserves to be prosecuted for grooming, whether he committed statutory rape is another matter. But I don't feel as though I am cleansing myself. Desiring younger women is normal, as you say been around since the dawn of time. For many men they will have a moral belief that it is wrong to act on this below a certain age. For those that don't we have the law. Adam Johnson did not have the first and ignored the second. I don't think he is a monster, I think he is creepy/predatory and combines this with low moral standing and disregard for the law.
Right it's getting late I'm off to youporn to look at some barely legal!
Quoting Puck from a different thread, but have always thought this strange too. It's oddly celebrated when taken in its generic form of myth-making. In the case of John Peel, who specifically got a 15-year old pregnant, and married another 15-year old, always felt it was strange how he escaped any of the posthumous flak during the investigations into almost all of his peers' bad behaviour. Guess it ties into what Spaced Saint has said, about perceptions of villainous parts of society and how we relate or don't relate to them. Musicians, pirates, and highwaymen good; authoritarian figures such as politicians bad.