I've actually read the post now. A bit of a ramble but I agree with most of what is said. I have some conflicting views in my own head over the whole thing. After enough years living with British people I can see that a lot of them see Irish Republicanism as a dirty word, as obviously wrong and everything connected with it wrong - and there should be no excuse of being outwardly supportive of such organisations, ever. Unfortunately there is probably no talking to these people, because they neither have the time nor the inclination to actually learn anything about Irish history, the Oscar Wildes and the James Joyces, the mostly Presbyterian Irish Republican movement the United Irishmen - the Protestant yet Irish republican roots even in my own family (my mother's maiden name is Williamson and my own name Reid is and Old English name). They have no inclination to learn what made normal everyday people in a supposedly liberal western democracy feel as if they needed to join a paramilitary force, and why a state would introduce internment without trial while engaging in, what has now been proven as, murder of it's own citizens. No, to be outwardly Irish Republican though is to be a bigot. So in saying this we get a bunch of Scottish neds running about spouting songs when they themselves have not even bothered their arses to learn anything about Irish history - and I'm sure the songs themselves are not going to help educate those who fear or hate nationalist Irish politics. So yes it's just frustrating that people like myself, an atheist with an Ulster Protestant missus and kids who go to mixed non religious schools, get lumped in with the idiots and be labelled as sectarian - and that in effect some aspects of my ideology are being criminalized in that for me to sing a Irish Republican song in Scotland could lead to my arrest. It's an erosion of the fundamental freedom to free speech and in itself is a little sectarian, since I would be completely free to sing songs of British military history despite it arguably having much more 'black spots' on it's face than the Irish political history in question.
That is more eloquent than Phil, Mick. I am glad to get peoples opinions on this. I had a strange experience on saturday evening. I was debating a topic with a fella and he did something that completely and utterly threw me. He said "Actually, I'd never thought of it like that, you have convinced me". I thought of not606 for a second and thought. "wouldn't that be something", people actually taking on board a counter argument. I have an opinion, including on the Scottish neds but it isn't going to convince anyone. especially on something so clearly divisive. Amongst our own support there are shades of opinion, none of which can be shown to be absolutely right. when the huns look at us, it is done in terms of black and white. they don't see the grey, which is funny because they tell us our shirts are that colour.
A: Why do you post on the Celtic board? B: What makes you think a "Devil's Advocate" is "a person who likes to argue"?
http://www.not606.com/showthread.php/68692-What-was-sung-yesterday-at-the-Celtic-game On the Celtic board.
I've read most of your comments and they are garbage too. Doesnt mean you cant be right once If you'd read it and had an opinion then fair enough post. But if you dont read it then why comment?
"right on this issue?" Is that not a bit arrogant? It is certainly an interesting article expressing opinions with which you obviously agree totally. There are points made, with which some Celtic supporters will agree and others not - which is their entitlement. I would suggest that it is a very complicated issue and don't see that anyone on this forum can sit in judgement of which Celtic supporters are right or wrong. Opinions will depend on a whole range of aspects such as upbringing, experience, outlook, national identity etc of each individual Celtic supporter. Taking offence at songs will depend again on similar traits. I tend to keep my political opinions to myself generally unless I am discussing issues with friends with whom I can have a reasonable exchange - but would not seek to deny other Celtic supporters the right to express their opinions if that is what they wish to do - whether or not I agreed with them.
Ok espana, I say this only to play devils advocate, by singing the war tunes, are we ignoring the rights of those who don't want them associated with the club?
Do you think a Football Match is the correct place to make "Political" statements? Especially if those statements bring the club's name into disrepute? Are people's personal freedoms (at a football match) more important than they club they profess to love?
Dev you'll never convince some of these folk that there is a line where football ends and politics begins.
dev advocate is not playing devils advocate.....as his name would suggest I was. I'm not going to answer that just yet dev, I have a bad enough reputation as it is.
Fair enough Rebel - that's why I maintain that it is a complicated issue. I think, however, that you will find that it is those in power who tend to dictate the rights and wrongs of issues and impose their judgements on the rest of us - I believe that the idea of everyone having 'rights' is a basic fallacy.
if the crux of phils' argument is that any reasonable person would be offended by this and that the proposed legislation includes text about a 'reasonable person' then it will remain subjective until tested. Then we go back to Mick's point about criminalising an ideology and tha is also an erosion of rights. Like you say, it is a complicated issue. I know where I stand and it is coming under increasing pressure.
