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Cheltenham 2016 Ante Post Thread

Discussion in 'Horse Racing' started by the don, Oct 27, 2015.

  1. beeforsalmon

    beeforsalmon Well-Known Member

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    Limini's the number one for me anyway Wooley ;)

    Fair bit of shortening of Limini today across the board so looks like the rumours were rubbish, as I felt. Hopefully we'll see her by the end of the month, possibly in the race Morning Run won last year. If she turns up on the day, she's going to take some stopping.
     
    #121
  2. Ste D

    Ste D Well-Known Member

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    #122
    TopClass and redcat1 like this.
  3. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor Staff Member

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    I posted this on Dec 27th and just less than 2 weeks later the best prices available are 2/1, 8/11, 4/6 and EVS. We could see all 4 go off at odds-on at this rate.
     
    #123
  4. beeforsalmon

    beeforsalmon Well-Known Member

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    Bit embarrassing only having 4s on Min Oddy <laugh> ;)
     
    #124
  5. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor Staff Member

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    I know, but I do have 14/1 Sprinter Sacre and 20/1 Thistlecrack <ok>
     
    #125
  6. Ste D

    Ste D Well-Known Member

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    My only worry about that bet is Fanny Power won't make it to the festivel and Willie runs Vroom Vroom Mag instead.
     
    #126

  7. woolcombe-folly007

    woolcombe-folly007 Well-Known Member

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    Just had two small punts today -

    CHAMPION CHASE-SIMONSIG- 20/1 ew

    Ok so the biggest gamble will be if he turns up but surely if he turns up this will be his race and imo is the only one who can match Un De Sceaux for the tatical speed that he runs at out the front! He like Un De Sceaux imo should have run in the Champion Hurdle - my main bet for this race and in a few of my multiples is UDS but should he not be 100% or his jumping lets him down then there will be a lot of horses challenging for the win but Simonsig has the natural speed, jumping and class to do so and at the very least get placed. So the main worry will be if he actually turns up


    WORLD HURDLE- PTIT ZIG- 25/1 ew

    Ok so again the main worry is will he turn up on this race- going back over hurdles after his jumping worry- was just one class off being a top hurdler. I backed him for the King George as a step up to 3m looked to bring out an improvement in him so the distance is no worry he Has the tatical speed to win a world hurdle and Saphir Du Rheu ran a good second in this race last year after failing to shine over fences so Nichols can get them ready for the change in such short notice (no need to even mention big bucks) but again providing he turns up (which the planes are) he should run his race
     
    #127
  8. TopClass

    TopClass Well-Known Member

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    Have been sorely, sorely tempted by Simonsig. NRNB would appear to be the way to go.

    His ability looked all in tact when he cantered all over the opposition at Aintree before finding little, but he was entitled to that. Unlike Sprinter, his ability should still in the most part be there because its just been little niggles and overall fragility. I'd love to see them all there- 3 x Arkle wins and 3 x Champion Chase wins (UDS, Sprinter, Simonsig won an Arkle, Dodging Bullets, Sprinter, and Sire De Grugy all won a Champion. Really would be something to cherish.
     
    #128
  9. stick

    stick Bumper King

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    Good luck Wooly but looks crazy betting to me. Neither better than 40/60 to turn up and if they did would be close to those prices on the day!
     
    #129
  10. woolcombe-folly007

    woolcombe-folly007 Well-Known Member

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    That is a bit of a worry! But had some winnings still from Mountainous and got bit over excited with the festival coming up <laugh> only small stakes but Simonsig if he turns up will halve in price - have had my fingers burnt by him before but as toppy said his ability should still be around and is to big at 20's PTIT ZIG hoping the Nichols failures over fences reverting to 3m hurdles effect will do the job
     
    #130
  11. beeforsalmon

    beeforsalmon Well-Known Member

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    Renneti 20/1 Coral Cup
    They've been up to something with this one.
     
    #131
  12. Sir Barney Chuckles

    Sir Barney Chuckles Who Dares Wins

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    Ante-post wagering is, of course, all about forming an opinion, making your choice and then paying your money. Views will differ and sometimes you will be right and sometimes you will be wrong.

    The classic example of this has happened these past couple of days in our ‘trade papers’. Yesterday, the ‘ante post chap’ in ‘The Weekender’ put up Road to Riches in the Ryanair (because given the Gigginstown fire power he felt there wasn’t much chance of him running in the CGC) and today Pricewise has put up the same horse in the CGC!
     
    #132
  13. Ste D

    Ste D Well-Known Member

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    Do tell Beefy:emoticon-0100-smile
     
    #133
  14. beeforsalmon

    beeforsalmon Well-Known Member

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    Just watch his runs, he either dwells at the start or gets extremely far back. Bit like Wicklow Brave did last season before turning the County into a procession ;) Always flies home so the step up in trip looks perfect and he's off the right sort of mark. Mightn't even go for it I guess but the 20/1 reflects that.
     
    #134
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  15. Chaninbar

    Chaninbar The Crafty Cockney

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    I'm not one for criticising the absolutely lovely Rebecca but it would appear from the Ryanair betting that the ravishing beauty has had a blond moment. Irish Cavalier not in Ryanair but still in the Gold Cup. Thank goodness for NRNB! He has no chance surely. Will probably end up lumping a big weight round in one of the handicaps
     
    #135
  16. Black Caviar

    Black Caviar 1 of the top judges in Europe

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    think Mullins has the same feed supplier as Omeara

    the best jump horse outside of closutton is only the 50th best jump horse in training

    even when one of Mullins gets beat its by another Mullins runner

    cheltenham records could be smashed this year by Walsh and Mullins, umpteen odds on shots at cheltenham is now the future of the game, they cant get near his C team never mind his A team
     
    #136
  17. Black Caviar

    Black Caviar 1 of the top judges in Europe

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    closutton 1/25 - rest of the world 20/1

    there could be hope yet for the rest of the world, heard a rumour that Old Guard did a sizzling piece of work with Meadowcroft Boy and hopes are high
     
    #137
  18. beeforsalmon

    beeforsalmon Well-Known Member

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    One advantage of Willie Mullins' domination is that we're seeing the best horses in the best care being trained to the best of their ability. Robbie McNamara asks how can this not be good for racing?

    PLENTY of criticism has been going around of late of the dominance of Willie Mullins. I can understand the criticism on some levels - in that it’s very much a similar look to most days racing. You take out Willie Mullins, Gordon Elliott, Gigginstown and J.P. McManus, National Hunt racing would have a completely different look. It’s exactly because of these however that Irish racing is in the driving seat in the world of racing.

    Not very long ago the main complaint in Ireland was that we were losing our promising bumper horses and novices to powerful yards across the water. Fast forward a couple of years, and we have without question the most promising youngsters emerging every year and many of the most promising youngsters being imported from France.

    Big price store horses are being acquired by Gigginstown House Stud every year, with the aim of beginning in point-to-points, which has made that circuit a much more lucrative one. We hear complaints that these horses make it too competitive and that horses have to be trained too hard at a young age to compete against them.

    In my mind, this is similar to a fat kid in school who’s complaining because some fast kids have entered in the same race that he wants to win. A couple of years ago, when things were less competitive, the fat kid would have had a chance in the race but like everything in this world, things move forward – everything gets more refined, more advanced, more technical and the fat kid should stop sulking and get his backside in gear.

    EVOLVING SPORT
    Like many other sports, things have become more advanced. Rugby, soccer and athletics are all completely different sports to what they were 15 years ago and horse racing is no different - better knowledge of nutrition, better knowledge of fitness, better knowledge of high performance techniques.

    Training horses the same way people did 10 and 15 years ago doesn’t work anymore, and unfortunately many trainers, who were once successful, have fallen foul of not adapting their methods, and have gone out of business or are now struggling. People need to move with the times and nobody has done that better than Willie Mullins. Constantly working on base fitness, his horses prove tougher and fitter than anybody else’s. His training ability allowed him to have winners, having winners attracted better owners, better owners brought him better horses and they have got him to where he is today.

    There are two types of fitness – aerobic and anaerobic. Aerobic fitness basically means with oxygen and any person in the world can train a horse this way - it’s like going for a run but not getting out of breath and in racing this accounts for the first maybe three-quarters of the race.

    Getting a horse to relax, to jump and to travel are obviously huge factors as well, but aerobic fitness will allow a horse to breathe easily when it’s in its comfort zone. However, it is anaerobic fitness that I believe is the most important factor of all in National Hunt racing and this is what Willie Mullins has cracked. Anaerobic fitness is when the horse or human comes under pressure – the shortness of breath, the aching muscles, the lactic acid that they have is of a much greater capacity to deal with these factors. It is at this time, the last quarter of the race that you have to rely on this fitness – it’s what allows the horse to keep going when their muscles are ready to give out. It’s this fitness that gives Mullins’ horses an advantage over everybody else’s.

    Foundation

    He puts in a huge amount of foundation work into each horse before they have even had a canter. A great amount of ground work gives his horses huge base layers of muscle. Starting off their training with large amounts of muscle mass allows the horses to train harder, leading to them getting even fitter and it also gives a quicker recovery time, which means the horse can be worked harder.

    Similarly Usain Bolt doesn’t train by just sprinting 100 metres over and over – instead he puts a huge amount of work into building his muscle mass and that is where the power and fitness comes from.

    TOP OF THE TABLE
    Mullins doesn’t spend colossal money on horses. He does spend big money but you could count on one hand how many horses in his yard that have cost more than €300,000. That sum is a lot of money, obviously, but if you compare it to David Pipe, Paul Nicholls, Gigginstown horses that haven’t gone to his yard, Alan Potts and Barry Connell, you see that it’s not a Real Madrid situation whereby whatever they want they get, by throwing large amounts of money around.

    He has great scouts in France constantly seeking out new horses, including Harold Kirk who also oversees a lot of the Irish point-to-points in search of new talents. It’s pretty much run like a Premier League football club and Mullins is clear at the top of the table.

    There are some trainers trying to keep pursuit in Gordon Elliott, Henry de Bromhead, Tony Martin, Jessica Harrington, Noel Meade and rising trainers such as Alan Fleming and Joseph O’Brien, who could prove a force when he gets his licence.

    It is tough for the smaller trainers to compete and it’s tougher for them to keep a string of horses, especially when it’s so hard to get good horses that can compete against these great horses. That’s the nature of life however, it’s never fair to everybody.

    Racing is a cut-throat sport, some trainers will be reading this and won’t be entirely happy with what I’m saying but they do the exact same to jockeys that aren’t riding winners every day - they don’t pay them a second thought and won’t use them, just like owners won’t use those trainers. You can blame who you like but if a young jockey can ride as well as Ruby Walsh, he’s going to be successful. The same applies to training - if a trainer is as good to train horses as Willie Mullins, he’s going to be successful. It’s as simple as that.

    The one huge advantage to this domination is that we’re seeing a lot of the best horses in the best care being trained to the best of their ability. People are saying it’s not good for racing but it’s not competitiveness that attracts people to racing, if that was the case you’d have bumper crowds heading to summer meetings to watch 16-runner 80-95 handicap hurdles. People are drawn to racing by good horses.

    Race meetings attract the biggest crowds when good horses are running and because of these big trainers and owners we’re spoiled with good horses week in week out. When I was growing up, I can remember Dorans Pride, Florida Pearl, Imperial Call - I can’t remember what price they were or how many runners were in each race but I remember following them and the greats always stick with you, just like Hurricane Fly, Kauto Star, Istabraq and Frankel on the flat of recent times.

    Mullins’ domination has given us Un De Sceaux, Douvan, Faugheen, Djakadam, Vautour, Annie Power, Don Poli, Champagne Fever, Nichols Canyon, Pont Alexandre, Valseur Lido and novices like Min, Bellshill, Yorkhill and Up For Review among many many more. How can this not be good for racing? These are the horses that attract the public to racing, and like I said it’s hard for small owners and trainers but it’s good for drawing in bigger fish and better for sellers of promising horses.

    Make your choice, would you rather watch Drogheda United play competitive matches for a season or watch brilliance from Barcelona easily disposing of lesser opposition? Would you rather look at three moderate looking women or one gorgeous woman?

    I know what I’d chose every day even though I know she wouldn’t be looking back at me.
     
    #138
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  19. Black Caviar

    Black Caviar 1 of the top judges in Europe

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    might have a point if he ran his good horses against each other

    Mullins’ domination has given us Un De Sceaux, Douvan, Faugheen, Djakadam, Vautour, Annie Power, Don Poli, Champagne Fever, Nichols Canyon,

    the bold would in all likelihood have clashed numerous times if spread around, instead they are well placed to avoid each other and to bully inferior horses 95% of the time

    I agree good horses get people into racing, but they have to be beating other good horses in meaningful races or its pretty pointless

    The top novices will not be running against each other at Cheltenham because they are all in the same stable, if there was another 3 novice races Wylies wouldnt even run against Riccis, how anyone can argue that is good for racing I have no idea, but seems like plenty of arselicking going on in the article, Mullins has some physical edge that no one else knows about, bar Robbie Macnamara apparently, I highly doubt that, hes a class trainer obviously but his rivals are completely outgunnned and bordering on hopeless.
     
    #139
  20. Ste D

    Ste D Well-Known Member

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    bordering on hopeless bit harsh there DK-Elliot,Harrington & Martin have had some decent winners at Cheltenham,don't see how that makes them useless:emoticon-0112-wonde
     
    #140

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