Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

I'll bet you that Turkey join the EU before we have a shiny new stadium! Times are hard, and we live with austerity but my funds might run to putting a pint on it...

I think there is an equal chance of the U.K. joining the Arab League before we get a new stadium. Could I suggest that if you lack the confidence in your oft repeated prediction that Turkey will join the EU to risk more than a pint on it, you stop repeating it as a fact?

Anyway, now on to my obsession, China, or more especially the odious Chinese government. A country which has NEVER had a government which wished to govern in the best interests of the majority of its people.

Today they are trying human rights lawyer Pu Zhiqiang on charges of 'picking a quarrel' (seriously) and 'inciting ethnic unrest'. What did he do? He posted seven mildly irreverent tweets referring to the Chinese policy on their ethnic Muslim population. He faces 8 years in a Chinese prison. Police shoved and punched western journalists and diplomats wishing to attend the trial, and dragged away local protesters.

George Osborne must be right in saying that the best way to help improve human rights in China is never to talk about it (but say you do 'privately' and leave the awkward stuff to Prince Charles standing up for that old charlatan the Dalai Lama); treat them likely royalty when they deign to visit us and make them feel comfortable by supressing all protests; and award them contracts to run our power generation infrastructure. That'll make the bastards change their ways.

 

[sb_73]

Bit of a low today. Woke up traumatised after seeing Crimewatch last night. There are so many truly disgusting people out there. I shouldn't have expected the Today programme to cheer me up, but was treated to John 'Mimi, it's all about me' Humphreys slagging off Star Wars for about 20 minutes. Pure opinion, and seriously who cares what this old bugger thinks of it? Then Thought for the Day was even more incoherent than usual. Apparently Jesus was a refugee and was born in 'difficult circumstances'. Probably a breech of his human rights, as all other babies 2100 years ago were obviously born in sterile environments with machines that go 'Bing'. Who picks these idiots and gives them air time? A Briton going into space is obviously a story, but the lead news story in every bulletin when nothing has actually happened. I have now heard that he will spend 173 days in space way more than 173 times. Perhaps there should be a news item about me.

That's better.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Could I suggest that if you lack the confidence in your oft repeated prediction that Turkey will join the EU to risk more than a pint on it, you stop repeating it as a fact?

You overstate your case. I've never claimed that Turkey will join the EU as a fact, just that it is highly likely, particularly now that it has leverage over African migration to Europe.

Here's what you miss when you ask for a bet on whether Turkey will have joined by 2020. This EU referendum is a once in a generation event. Voters should be asking how likely it is that a country of upwards 70 million population will be joining in the next 10, 20, 30 years because, with unlimited freedom of movement, if and when it happens, it will further increase the pressure on services in the UK.

Turkey's just one in a number of factors around which the referendum will revolve - but an important one.

 

[sb_73]

You overstate your case. I've never claimed that Turkey will join the EU as a fact, just that it is highly likely, particularly now that it has leverage over African migration to Europe.

Here's what you miss when you ask for a bet on whether Turkey will have joined by 2020. This EU referendum is a once in a generation event. Voters should be asking how likely it is that a country of upwards 70 million population will be joining in the next 10, 20, 30 years because, with unlimited freedom of movement, if and when it happens, it will further increase the pressure on services in the UK.

Turkey's just one in a number of factors around which the referendum will revolve - but an important one.

I take it all back Goldie, it must be happening, Cameron wants it to.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-Turkey-to-join-EU-despite-migrant-fears.html

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I take it all back Goldie, it must be happening, Cameron wants it to.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-Turkey-to-join-EU-despite-migrant-fears.html

Given Cameron's low personal standing among his European colleagues, Turkey may be advised to go for more influential allies...

 

[sb_73]

Given Cameron's low personal standing among his European colleagues, Turkey may be advised to go for more influential allies...

The whole thing was neatly crystallised for me this morning, listening to the wireless.

There are obviously divisions within all member countries about the EU, but by and large the fundamental philosophy is for closer integration - economic and political - and the population being EU citizens with equal rights in all EU countries as well as national citizens. In the UK we largely only buy into the economic bit. We regard EU citizens as migrants, not citizens (this is genuinely bewildering to many in Europe). We want some things but not others. We view the political elements of the EU with deep distrust. We want a different type of club to the one we are in.

If my assumptions about general UK opinions on the EU (many of them totally understandable and not without reason) are correct, we really should leave, despite my personal preferences. If we vote to stay in the divisions and arguments will continue ad nauseum, because the nature of our problem is in the philosophy not just the operational side of the EU. It's damaging to the national psyche.

I think it would be much more interesting to have this debate in these terms rather than how many years a Bulgarian has to wait to get in work tax credits in the UK. Farage is probably the only one to want to do this, but he always comes across as angry, facetious, spiteful and mean spirited which rather detracts from the discussion. The problem isn't the EU, it's our relationship with the EU.

The Yes campaign need to be honest about this stuff - if we stay in it should not be grudgingly, we need to buy into the programme. This will mean lots of things many won't like.

Likewise the No campaign need to make it clear that there is no such thing as a clean break - if we want to trade with the EU we will have to play by their rules; the border for refugees will move from Calais to Dover; if we really believe EU migrants are swamping our social fabric at least some of them will have to be deported.

My prediction: we will vote, possibly narrowly, to stay in. For all the wrong reasons, fear of change highest amongst them (cf Scotland), and the divisions will continue.

 

[TWGWTDT]

You should drive there.

Caroline Flint just said on QT that Trump's statements about Muslims were racist. How can this be so? Islam is not a race.

Bigoted certainly, but not racist surely?

Sums it up exactly … should ask her what is a Christian?
History tells us they have caused mayhem throughout the world

SB73, yes you should drive and it will be possible:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/t...superhighway-linking-Britain-and-America.html

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

The whole thing was neatly crystallised for me this morning, listening to the wireless.

There are obviously divisions within all member countries about the EU, but by and large the fundamental philosophy is for closer integration - economic and political - and the population being EU citizens with equal rights in all EU countries as well as national citizens. In the UK we largely only buy into the economic bit. We regard EU citizens as migrants, not citizens (this is genuinely bewildering to many in Europe). We want some things but not others. We view the political elements of the EU with deep distrust. We want a different type of club to the one we are in.

If my assumptions about general UK opinions on the EU (many of them totally understandable and not without reason) are correct, we really should leave, despite my personal preferences. If we vote to stay in the divisions and arguments will continue ad nauseum, because the nature of our problem is in the philosophy not just the operational side of the EU. It's damaging to the national psyche.

I think it would be much more interesting to have this debate in these terms rather than how many years a Bulgarian has to wait to get in work tax credits in the UK. Farage is probably the only one to want to do this, but he always comes across as angry, facetious, spiteful and mean spirited which rather detracts from the discussion. The problem isn't the EU, it's our relationship with the EU.

The Yes campaign need to be honest about this stuff - if we stay in it should not be grudgingly, we need to buy into the programme. This will mean lots of things many won't like.

Likewise the No campaign need to make it clear that there is no such thing as a clean break - if we want to trade with the EU we will have to play by their rules; the border for refugees will move from Calais to Dover; if we really believe EU migrants are swamping our social fabric at least some of them will have to be deported.

My prediction: we will vote, possibly narrowly, to stay in. For all the wrong reasons, fear of change highest amongst them (cf Scotland), and the divisions will continue.

A very fair summary, Stan. Clearly, there is big irritation in the EU now that, with all the Middle Eastern and African immigration problems and security implications over Schengen, the UK have the temerity to say that it is not happy with the way the EU is going. We're regarded as an unnecessary distraction.

In this regard, I agree with what the Labour MP Kate Hoey said today, that if we do vote to stay in the EU, this will effectively represent the end of the UK, because every time we complain about immigration levels or ever closer union thereafter, the unelected bureacrats in Brussels will point out that British voters have given their mandate for these. Given that the Euro block will be running the EU by then, we will have virtually no voice. Of course, in this event, as you say, there will still be continual discontent within the UK and moves by UKIP, certain Tory and Labour MP's to come out of the EU (Turkey could be the deal breaker) so it will be a running sore, negative and devisive.

It's clear the forthcoming referendum is NOT about maintaining the status quo. It's about whether the British people want to endorse a future European state with all the implications that has, particularly levels of immigration, for their every day life.

 

[rangercol]

A very fair summary, Stan. Clearly, there is big irritation in the EU now that, with all the Middle Eastern and African immigration problems and security implications over Schengen, the UK have the temerity to say that it is not happy with the way the EU is going. We're regarded as an unnecessary distraction.

In this regard, I agree with what the Labour MP Kate Hoey said today, that if we do vote to stay in the EU, this will effectively represent the end of the UK, because every time we complain about immigration levels or ever closer union thereafter, the unelected bureacrats in Brussels will point out that British voters have given their mandate for these. Given that the Euro block will be running the EU by then, we will have virtually no voice. Of course, in this event, as you say, there will still be continual discontent within the UK and moves by UKIP, certain Tory and Labour MP's to come out of the EU (Turkey could be the deal breaker) so it will be a running sore, negative and devisive.

It's clear the forthcoming referendum is NOT about maintaining the status quo. It's about whether the British people want to endorse a future European state with all the implications that has, particularly levels of immigration, for their every day life.

Agreed.
If we vote to stay in we are basically signing up to be part of the Federal superstate.

Cameron's "demands" are a complete smokescreen. He'll come back claiming some sort of "victory" and then tell everyone to vote to stay in.

We MUST vote to leave. Vote with your hearts Britons and let's get the hell out of the madhouse!! Currently, polls show that we would leave. The English, especially are looking likely to vote to leave and the Welsh are currently slightly in favour of Brexit too.
This will leave the Scots out on a limb and will possibly lead to another Independence vote up there. Trouble is, they have no income from the oil now with the price per barrel so low. A bit of a pickle, but I'll be voting to leave whatever the consequences.

 

[sb_73]

Sums it up exactly … should ask her what is a Christian?
History tells us they have caused mayhem throughout the world

SB73, yes you should drive and it will be possible:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/t...superhighway-linking-Britain-and-America.html

If they make it a toll road and you factor in bribes it'll still be cheaper to fly first class.

Agreed.
If we vote to stay in we are basically signing up to be part of the Federal superstate.

Cameron's "demands" are a complete smokescreen. He'll come back claiming some sort of "victory" and then tell everyone to vote to stay in.

We MUST vote to leave. Vote with your hearts Britons and let's get the hell out of the madhouse!! Currently, polls show that we would leave. The English, especially are looking likely to vote to leave and the Welsh are currently slightly in favour of Brexit too.
This will leave the Scots out on a limb and will possibly lead to another Independence vote up there. Trouble is, they have no income from the oil now with the price per barrel so low. A bit of a pickle, but I'll be voting to leave whatever the consequences.

Agreed, the terms of this debate are not being clearly stated.

Even the economic argument for staying in doesn't hold much water unless we buy into the whole thing. An open, integrated market consistS of free movement of three things - goods and services; labour, and capital. We really only want the first one, keeping the labour out and keeping the capital in London. It's incoherent.

Meanwhile the Pope has handily discovered another post mortem miracle performed by Mother Theresa so he can make her a saint under the new fast track process, after the first miracle was so comprehensively rubbished. This time it's in Brazil, what we are not allowed to know the name or circumstances of the lucky beneficiary. This horrible old crone took $50m in donations from lovely people like to Duvaliers in Haiti (who stole it from their own poor) and Wall Street fraudsters, and didn't spend a penny of it alleviating the poverty and suffering which were such an important part of her 'faith'. But it diverts attention from the activities of priests I suppose.

 

[Sooperhoop]

Cameron's "demands" are a complete smokescreen. He'll come back claiming some sort of "victory" and then tell everyone to vote to stay in.

You wonder whether anyone over there takes Cameron seriously. Clearly Merkel treats him with undisguised contempt and the fact he desperately wants us to stay in at all costs will make his position too weak to gain any significant concessions. The fact he is in his last term makes his position even worse, the 'contenders' will likely line up with whatever position they think will benefit themselves most in the run-up to the vote.

I think at present there would be a slight majority in favour of leaving, Cameron will do everything in his power to make it seem better to stay in and, ultimately, it will be the gutter press that will sway minds in the final say.

Personally, I think if we stay in we will lose our national identity within 20-30 years, we already have in certain areas of London...

 

[Stroller]

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[GoldhawkRoad]

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Nice list, Strolls (and a pretty decent attempt at spelling Multinational too )

Cameron's star is on the wane. Soon he will ride off into the Oxfordshire countryside with Samantha and Rebekah Brooks at his side (well, you know what promiscuous baskets these aristocrats are)

My wish for 2016 - Theresa May takes up the "UK Out" banner and rides bare-breasted around Parliament square like Boudica rallying her troops, spearing Nigel Farage on the way

 

[sb_73]

While the flood victims obviously get my full sympathy, I think this North/South split thing is a bit rich. They seem to have forgotten Somerset being underwater for weeks a couple of years ago, Bocastle being washed away etc etc.

I suppose we should count ourselves lucky that Liverpool hasn't been flooded, just imagine the orgy of self pity that would have stirred up.

 

[Deleted 1]

While the flood victims obviously get my full sympathy, I think this North/South split thing is a bit rich. They seem to have forgotten Somerset being underwater for weeks a couple of years ago, Bocastle being washed away etc etc.

I suppose we should count ourselves lucky that Liverpool hasn't been flooded, just imagine the orgy of self pity that would have stirred up.

Won't happen - accepting Leeds as the obvious exception it's only nice places that tend to get flooded.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

While the flood victims obviously get my full sympathy, I think this North/South split thing is a bit rich. They seem to have forgotten Somerset being underwater for weeks a couple of years ago, Bocastle being washed away etc etc.

Berkshire and Oxfordshire underwater last year too, though not on the scale of what's happening across the North. Fc-uk knows what's going to happen when Frank comes in tonight

 

[durbar2003]

I think we should apply to be the 51st US state, that will solve the immigration problem. (and if any do manage to get in we can shoot them)

 

[kiwiqpr]

I think we should apply to be the 51st US state, that will solve the immigration problem. (and if any do manage to get in we can shoot them)

Could do
But you would hate all the RIP threads

 

[sb_73]

So it seems the value of your pension pot depends on the stability of stock markets in a totalitarian state and how two sects of a hideous religion get on. Capitalism, doncha just luv it?

The China thing is about to get a lot worse by the way, as a huge number of stocks which have to date been barred from being sold will soon be tradeable. And because we are not buying so much Chinese crap, they are not buying raw materials to make the crap, to the point that it will soon be (if it's not already) uneconomic to make steel or mine copper.

 

[Sooperhoop]

to the point that it will soon be (if it's not already) uneconomic to make steel or mine copper.

At which point our good friend Mittal will disappear up his Arcelor...