He might be short, but that's no reason to call him names.Kante 5 ft 6 on the line
Rival watch
- Thread starter Spurlock
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Otazaki deservedly subbed off. Let Schweinsteiger get an open header three feet in front of goal in the middle, and took a ball-losing touch on a ball that would have taken him in alone on goal if he’d let it run. On the other hand, he moaned a lot.
Is van Gaal actually Villas-Boas in a ridiculous Spitting Image-style comedy mask?
They're grinding out results, but the football's not what you'd expect from such an expensively assembled side.
They're grinding out results, but the football's not what you'd expect from such an expensively assembled side.
Fuchs using the towel on throw-ins, which gives me horrible flashbacks to Pulis, Stoke and Delap.
I thought that they'd banned that, though?
I thought that they'd banned that, though?
Really, really interesting debate - some excellently made points from both sides 
I feel a bit like I'm butting in at this point, but as I started it I think I'm entitled to
PNP - from the little I know about the SPL (I was based in Edinburgh for a few months. Beautiful city.), it does seem to have been run quite shoddily over the years. Compared to the EPL who from more or less day 1 of mass televised football have been pushing for bigger and bigger coverage and funding - and largely receiving both.
However, I would also argue that the last few seasons in particular (just when record-breaking TV deals have begun to flow into the PL) demonstrate that money, whilst highly useful, is far (and getting further) from being the be all and end all of the game (thankfully). If you look at the teams who have with alarming consistency made a mockery of our 'finest' teams in the CL and even EL, and compare the budgets of the clubs involved, this is clear as day. For years now, the average PL club has layed out a higher net spend than their European equivalent will spend in a decade. Take West Ham for example, mid to top half side never going to get relegated. Net spend close to £30m. Compare that to let's say Real Betis. Net spend last summer of less than £6m. West Brom? Net spend of over £25m. Athletic Bilbao? £5.5m. Sevilla - twice champions of the EL? Net profit of over £11m!
Even the larger picture tells it's own story: last year, PL clubs spent over £800m on transfers. The nearest anywhere in the world came to that were La Liga (£400m) and Serie A (£300m). Those figures aren't even close. And if you remove Barca and Madrid from the La Liga figure, you're basically below Serie A and the Bundesliga anyway.
And yet, time and again, PL clubs are humiliated in Europe often by squads whose total cost is less than that of a single player.
I've argued almost all season that the more money proliferates through the sport, the more predators there are snapping up the top fish in the sea, the more important it becomes to spend wisely rather than aggressively. We see this with clubs like Palace, Leicester, Southampton etc. Clubs whose revenue and fanbase is a fraction of the big guns, yet look at how much ground they've closed on the sugar daddies in 2 or 3 short years because whereas the financial giants are still stuck in a mindset of haphazardly throwing wads of cash at the problem until it runs away, these 'small' clubs are making astute signing after astute signing.
This is starting to show gradually at a domestic level. But a whole season is a long, endurance marathon. I believe that to a greater and greater extent, the big clubs are only able to maintain their success due to sheer strength in numbers. United are playing worse football than 5-6 of the teams currently below them. But they will still finish higher because at the business end of the season, the sheer size of their squad (in terms of truly PL quality players) will show.
In Europe, where it is down to 90 minutes of quality rather than 38 games of quantity, the PL is being exposed regularly for what it has sadly become. A huge corporate balloon full of hot air.
I feel a bit like I'm butting in at this point, but as I started it I think I'm entitled to
PNP - from the little I know about the SPL (I was based in Edinburgh for a few months. Beautiful city.), it does seem to have been run quite shoddily over the years. Compared to the EPL who from more or less day 1 of mass televised football have been pushing for bigger and bigger coverage and funding - and largely receiving both.
However, I would also argue that the last few seasons in particular (just when record-breaking TV deals have begun to flow into the PL) demonstrate that money, whilst highly useful, is far (and getting further) from being the be all and end all of the game (thankfully). If you look at the teams who have with alarming consistency made a mockery of our 'finest' teams in the CL and even EL, and compare the budgets of the clubs involved, this is clear as day. For years now, the average PL club has layed out a higher net spend than their European equivalent will spend in a decade. Take West Ham for example, mid to top half side never going to get relegated. Net spend close to £30m. Compare that to let's say Real Betis. Net spend last summer of less than £6m. West Brom? Net spend of over £25m. Athletic Bilbao? £5.5m. Sevilla - twice champions of the EL? Net profit of over £11m!
Even the larger picture tells it's own story: last year, PL clubs spent over £800m on transfers. The nearest anywhere in the world came to that were La Liga (£400m) and Serie A (£300m). Those figures aren't even close. And if you remove Barca and Madrid from the La Liga figure, you're basically below Serie A and the Bundesliga anyway.
And yet, time and again, PL clubs are humiliated in Europe often by squads whose total cost is less than that of a single player.
I've argued almost all season that the more money proliferates through the sport, the more predators there are snapping up the top fish in the sea, the more important it becomes to spend wisely rather than aggressively. We see this with clubs like Palace, Leicester, Southampton etc. Clubs whose revenue and fanbase is a fraction of the big guns, yet look at how much ground they've closed on the sugar daddies in 2 or 3 short years because whereas the financial giants are still stuck in a mindset of haphazardly throwing wads of cash at the problem until it runs away, these 'small' clubs are making astute signing after astute signing.
This is starting to show gradually at a domestic level. But a whole season is a long, endurance marathon. I believe that to a greater and greater extent, the big clubs are only able to maintain their success due to sheer strength in numbers. United are playing worse football than 5-6 of the teams currently below them. But they will still finish higher because at the business end of the season, the sheer size of their squad (in terms of truly PL quality players) will show.
In Europe, where it is down to 90 minutes of quality rather than 38 games of quantity, the PL is being exposed regularly for what it has sadly become. A huge corporate balloon full of hot air.
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Somebody at the BBC is pissed off they can't use the "Man Utd return to the top of the table" story they wrote on Tuesday morning.
They're quite sycophantic towards them for a bunch of Liverpool fans, aren't they?
They're quite sycophantic towards them for a bunch of Liverpool fans, aren't they?
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CK - One aspect that Scotland struggles with, is the general interest in the league, which hasn't always been the case when Rangers/Celtic had a higher calibre of player, such as the celtic teams of di canio/collins or O'Neils Celtic team of Hartson/Sutton/Larsson. Rangers of course had Gazza/Laudrup and many other great players/teams.
You had George Burley arrive at hearts, topped the league after 10 games (before his sacking) but that season there was a real interest in Scottish football.
Overall there is a depression over the standard of Scottish football. You have teams further north like Inverness Caley Thistle that struggle to attract fans, a club which finished 3rd, won a domestic cup and qualified for Europe. £25 a ticket to watch SPL football or spend £60 (or whatever the price is ) on a sky subscription. There is just a lack of interest from locals all over Scotland, in following their local team.
Aberdeen are now challenging for the title, but are lucky to attract 12,000 fans to watch games.
Rangers, Celtic, Dundee, Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen are all big clubs, with history and the league needs these clubs healthy, but there is no money in the game, to a point clubs are crippled and I can't see how its going to improve.
You had George Burley arrive at hearts, topped the league after 10 games (before his sacking) but that season there was a real interest in Scottish football.
Overall there is a depression over the standard of Scottish football. You have teams further north like Inverness Caley Thistle that struggle to attract fans, a club which finished 3rd, won a domestic cup and qualified for Europe. £25 a ticket to watch SPL football or spend £60 (or whatever the price is ) on a sky subscription. There is just a lack of interest from locals all over Scotland, in following their local team.
Aberdeen are now challenging for the title, but are lucky to attract 12,000 fans to watch games.
Rangers, Celtic, Dundee, Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen are all big clubs, with history and the league needs these clubs healthy, but there is no money in the game, to a point clubs are crippled and I can't see how its going to improve.
Manchester United boss Louis van Gaal says he's disappointed and they dominated the 90 minutes.
Blinder than Wenger!
Blinder than Wenger!
So are we about to play a third team with new manager this season?
Newcastle surely have to sack McClaren and we have them in two weeks.
Newcastle surely have to sack McClaren and we have them in two weeks.
True, but surely you'd agree that the likes of Molde, Malmo and Qarabag - all of whom outplayed Celtic in Europe - have far smaller budgets and far smaller fan bases? It isn't simply about the haves and the have nots of world football. Many a time, the haves simply spend what they have on bizarre signings (cf. Manchester United, circa 2011-2015) that ultimately set them back a season. Celtic's progress or lack thereof can only be gauged by their performances in Europe, because the SPL has been a foregone conclusion since Rangers abdicated. And in Europe, especially taking into consideration that with an annual wage bill in excess of £38m they are by a country mile one of the biggest teams in the EL. And I struggle to believe that there is less interest in the SPL than there is in the Scandinavian or Azerbaijani leagues. So the bottom line is, Celtic are just a ****e team run by morons who hire clowns as managers and failures as players. No-one notices this in the SPL because their wage bill is 25 times larger than Ross County. But in Europe they get found out and it will only get worse as the years progress.
In a bizarre way, banishing Rangers was one of the worst things to happen to Scottish football. It had to be done, but the whole league suffered as a result. And I fear that by the time (if not when) Rangers get back into the PL, there won't be anything left to salvage.
So are we about to play a third team with new manager this season?
Newcastle surely have to sack McClaren and we have them in two weeks.
It brings back memories of Christian Gross and Juande Ramos. Bad,dark times.
Newcastle surely have to sack McClaren and we have them in two weeks.
It brings back memories of Christian Gross and Juande Ramos. Bad,dark times.
I would think the difference is the leagues you mention have generally operated at the same level and teams/fans/owners are of the understanding domestic football is inferior compared to other European leagues with little hope of improving the quality, unless teams produce youngsters during a golden period for the country.
The players Celtic can now attract are mediocre, while any talent is looking to move down south as playing against ross county and caley thistle doesn't excite! Attracting players to Scotland is an issue, even with the draw of Celtic playing in the champions league, but in the past with the money available to both clubs and the ambition, Rangers and Celtic have signed some great players.
The best bet for Scottish football is to invest in youth and improve the quality of younger players, which Rangers are trying to do with their world-class facilities.
Not that i disagree about your views on Celtic in terms of how they are managed as they have contributed to their own failings. On your last point, yes that's true, I had the same opinion, as did many others up here, kicking rangers when down would backfire and not help matters, yet that was the popular vote.
Just watching the Bournemouth game. Adam Smith looking a good player and put his side back in the game with a quality strike.
Not the first ex Spurs player I have seen perform well today. I witnessed Jack Munns give a performance today for Cheltenham which made me wonder why such a talented footballer is playing at such a crap level.
Not the first ex Spurs player I have seen perform well today. I witnessed Jack Munns give a performance today for Cheltenham which made me wonder why such a talented footballer is playing at such a crap level.
Right, and that has basically been the SPL since more or less forever, with the exceptions of two anomalies - Rangers and Celtic. Now that the bubble has burst and Rangers went bust whilst Celtic have simply grown slothful in their absence, surely the SPL is now closer to where it should be in the real world - on par with the minor European leagues with the occasional flash in the pan of glory?
I always got the impression that Rangers and Celtic for decades artificially pumped hot air up the SPL's collective arse so that the entire footballing body could blithely convince itself that it was 'up there' in world footballing terms.
Celtic's wage bill puts them on financial par with the likes of Palace, who I reckon would utterly trounce them should the two sides meet.
Palace would trounce Celtic but then Palace can sign players like Cabaye due to the draw/money from being a premier league club, while Celtic sign Carlton Cole!, even if the wage bills are similar (not that I have looked at their wage bills).
The SPL has always been a minor European league, but yes what made them stand out, was Celtic/Rangers, two powerhouses that signed some great players, competed in the champions league and keeping them players obviously helped the league overall. If you replace Rangers/Celtic (of previous) with mediocre versions, the overall standard of the league is on par with the other minor leagues, however these minor leagues don't have clubs which can reach the level of Rangers/Celtic, or attract the calibre of players Rangers/Celtic can, due to their name when both clubs are in a healthy position.
Can Rangers/Celtic return to their previous glory? Difficult to see with the money elsewhere, lack of interest in the Scottish game, low income from TV deals.
Would be great to see the return of talented Scottish players, otherwise Charlie Adam may well be remembered for being the best talent Scotland have produced in recent times!
S
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We didn't get to see much of Adam Smith at 1st team level, but he always looked a talented prospect and I wonder whether we let him go too soon - particularly as we have subsequently paid out to get two back-ups for Walker: Yedlin who has been loaned out immediately and Trippier who is hardly looking a finished article....
West Ham drop more points. It's Cheerios for them I think. Good set of results for us this week lets hope arsenal and pool cooperate