Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Steelmonkey]

Don't jump on this thread very often, but thought I'd let you know that locally, we have just housed the first wave if Syrian refugees that landed in Glasgow last week. A few Syrian children turned up at my friends kids school on Thursday and were immediately surrounded by some of the more boisterous kids, who wrapped scarf arouns their heads and told them to dissapear back where they came from as they didn't trust Muslims.......only to find out they were actually Christians from Syria!!

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

Mass shootings and terrorism in France so we (and France) are going to bomb the **** out of Syria? That'll stop the suburban kids of Paris (and other major cities) blowing themselves up and shooting people?

 

[Peter Damage]

Mass shootings and terrorism in France so we (and France) are going to bomb the **** out of Syria? That'll stop the suburban kids of Paris (and other major cities) blowing themselves up and shooting people?

How about suburban kids like that 'jihadi john' lad who got blown up in Syria as one example?

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

How about suburban kids like that 'jihadi john' lad who got blown up in Syria as one example?

Well yes I suppose it might kill a few who are training over there but if the goal is to wipe out Islamic extremism then it's an impossible one to achieve and exists worldwide

 

[sb_73]

I would have said that Thatcher was a much bigger factor in the disintegration of our industrial base.

Britain adding to the bombing in Syria wouldn't actually achieve much, other than to make us more of a target for terrorists. Rather than this I would support our contributing to a global coalition of ground forces (UN sanctioned) to crush Daesh. Then deal with Assad. As ever though, the problem is what do you leave behind?

I'm afraid Tony is in my 'fallen heroes' club, bit like his namesake Fernandes. And you know fallen heroes always receive the bitterest (and probably unjust) criticism from their former followers. I was a big fan as a teenager, based on his book 'Arguments for Socialism' but a few years later when I read of his behaviour as part of the Labour 70s cabinet, his insane quest to nationalise very failing company (which still failed) and his bizarre ideas about Britain essentially withdrawing from the world really put me off. Great orator though, and clearly a man of principle. My hero (ish) from that time now is Michael Foot, who did his best to save a sinking ship (and failed) through negotiation and compromise. He too was appalled by Benn.

Britain joining to bombing is purely PR/ propaganda, may increase the risk to us but if you have the power to attack evil and choose not to use it, what does it say about you? On Assad, and possibly Putin - the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend, but sometimes pragmatism to deal with the clear and present danger is understandable. We did it with Stalin.

UAE, Saudi Arabia and Bahrain have all run bombing missions against Daesh, not prominently reported here. We would also need them and others to put boots on the ground. The what do we leave behind question is as you say a killer.

 

[Stroller]

I'm afraid Tony is in my 'fallen heroes' club, bit like his namesake Fernandes. And you know fallen heroes always receive the bitterest (and probably unjust) criticism from their former followers. I was a big fan as a teenager, based on his book 'Arguments for Socialism' but a few years later when I read of his behaviour as part of the Labour 70s cabinet, his insane quest to nationalise very failing company (which still failed) and his bizarre ideas about Britain essentially withdrawing from the world really put me off. Great orator though, and clearly a man of principle. My hero (ish) from that time now is Michael Foot, who did his best to save a sinking ship (and failed) through negotiation and compromise. He too was appalled by Benn.

Britain joining to bombing is purely PR/ propaganda, may increase the risk to us but if you have the power to attack evil and choose not to use it, what does it say about you? On Assad, and possibly Putin - the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend, but sometimes pragmatism to deal with the clear and present danger is understandable. We did it with Stalin.

UAE, Saudi Arabia and Bahrain have all run bombing missions against Daesh, not prominently reported here. We would also need them and others to put boots on the ground. The what do we leave behind question is as you say a killer.

Benn was indeed a man of principle, as is Corbyn. I admire both of them. Corbyn's problem is that he finds himself in a position whereby he is challenged to compromise his principles. He's worn the red poppy and pragmatically knelt before ER, but he won't readily agree to bombing for bombing's sake.

The point is that bombing in itself won't achieve much without the deployment of ground forces and often kills the wrong people. If a truly global coalition of ground force could be formed, including Arab states, we should take part in that in my opinion.

 

[QPR Oslo]

Benn was indeed a man of principle, as is Corbyn. I admire both of them. Corbyn's problem is that he finds himself in a position whereby he is challenged to compromise his principles. He's worn the red poppy and pragmatically knelt before ER, but he won't readily agree to bombing for bombing's sake.

The point is that bombing in itself won't achieve much without the deployment of ground forces. If a truly global coalition could be formed, including Arab states, we should take part in that in my opinion.

Thank the God's for the Benn's, the Corbyn's and the Foot's of the UK, and the dwindling numbers of leaders with sanity in this World.

The huge problem is eradicating the monstrous evil of these killers everywhere, without also eradicating the thousands, maybe millions, who have the great misfortune to have these evil people in their midst or as neighbours. Got to be a a very tough job for special forces, but it needs doing.

 

[sb_73]

Thank the God's for the Benn's, the Corbyn's and the Foot's of the UK, and the dwindling numbers of leaders with sanity in this World.

The huge problem is eradicating the monstrous evil of these killers everywhere, without also eradicating the thousands, maybe millions, who have the great misfortune to have these evil people in their midst or as neighbours. Got to be a a very tough job for special forces, but it needs doing.

There are an estimated 40,000 Daesh fighters in Syria/Iraq. Special Forces are brilliant for surgical attacks on specific targets, but to beat an army of that size you need an army. The Kurds are doing heroic stuff, but will stop when they have the territory required to form their own state and may then focus on getting 'their' land out of Turkey, which could get really messy for everyone. Elsewhere at the moment we rely on Assad's Syrian Army, which is fighting everyone else in the country, and the Iraqi army, which is improving but prone to spectacular collapses. Professional troops from other countries will be needed, especially if we don't want Assad to get all of Syria to himself.

Elsewhere I am hugely enjoying the Church of England's 'bewilderment' about the fact that their Lords Prayer ad won't be shown in cinemas ( why didn't they check before they spent the cash?), when their own Archbishop of Canterbury admits to doubts in God after the Paris attacks.

Also the Morrocans have opened the world's biggest solar farm, which can provide power to a million homes. Here's an idea - why don't we cover the Sahara, where there is **** all else and I'm told it's quite sunny, with these things, and let Europe buy the power from the Africans. If the resulting wealth is distributed properly the locals would be richer, could buy stuff from us and would be less inclined to want to visit us and rely on idiotic ideologies to explain their existence. And we deal with climate change too. A UN force guards the solar fields from dwindling numbers of medieval terrorists. Of course, in many places the same could have been achieved ( except the climate change stuff) with oil, but the wrong people got their hands on the cash. Obviously the best place to gather solar power is space, where apparently it's not very cloudy, but what's the betting that a Malaysian plane would fly into the cable linking it to my house?

 

[Peter Damage]

Well yes I suppose it might kill a few who are training over there but if the goal is to wipe out Islamic extremism then it's an impossible one to achieve and exists worldwide

Yeah okay, let's just leave it then

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

Yeah okay, let's just leave it then

I'd rather we dealt with the problems in Europe rather than exacerbating them by attacking one small part of a global problem

 

[Peter Damage]

I'd rather we dealt with the problems in Europe rather than exacerbating them by attacking one small part of a global problem

Why only one thing at a time? So would you rather targeted drone attacks on specific individuals didn't happen so we can focus on this non-descript problem in Europe? What problem in Europe do you mean? Do you mean the difficulties I had getting a train from Budapest airport and how do you propose dealing with this problem in Europe?

You said in your previous post the goal is to wipe out islamic extremism. That would be a long term goal but short term goal of blowing to pieces those
Brits who would orchestrate or participate in terror attacks in Britain surely isn't a bad idea... is it?

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

Why only one thing at a time? So would you rather targeted drone attacks on specific individuals didn't happen so we can focus on this non-descript problem in Europe? What problem in Europe do you mean? Do you mean the difficulties I had getting a train from Budapest airport and how do you propose dealing with this problem in Europe?

You said in your previous post the goal is to wipe out islamic extremism. That would be a long term goal but short term goal of blowing to pieces those
Brits who would orchestrate or participate in terror attacks in Britain surely isn't a bad idea... is it?

If it just triggers more aggression from those living here or in Europe then it probably is a bad idea. Chances are there will be another attack in Europe soon regardless of whether we blow the whole of Syria or wherever off the map. The greater the UK's role, the greater the chance of that attack being here IMO

 

[rangercol]

If it just triggers more aggression from those living here or in Europe then it probably is a bad idea. Chances are there will be another attack in Europe soon regardless of whether we blow the whole of Syria or wherever off the map. The greater the UK's role, the greater the chance of that attack being here IMO

So we run scared of upsetting these people, in case they hurt us more?

As I've said before, thank Christ some of you weren't around in the late thirties!!

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

So we run scared of upsetting these people, in case they hurt us more?

As I've said before, thank Christ some of you weren't around in the late thirties!!

No I'm saying we are attacking the wrong people. If Syria gets blown off the map you don't stop the threat here or in France. The war is in our own towns and cities and suburbs Bombing the **** out of Syria to me just seems to be politicians doing something so they can be seen to be doing something.

 

[Peter Damage]

No I'm saying we are attacking the wrong people. If Syria gets blown off the map you don't stop the threat here or in France. The war is in our own towns and cities and suburbs Bombing the **** out of Syria to me just seems to be politicians doing something so they can be seen to be doing something.

Could it not just be one part of a wider policy? And you're not bombing a whole country. These are precision air strikes and identified targets or laser guided at ISIS fighters that are guided in often by Kurds and Yazidi's who you would otherwise callously have left to the mercy of torturing, rapist murderers.

"Peace in our time" does spring to mind as Col alluded to

Internet will radicalise young Brits regardless of we are taking them on or letting them grow. They targeted in France, a concert a football match people in restaurants in cafe's because they were attacking a way of life. Those attacks will happen regardless of whether bombs are currently being dropped unless you conform to their strict ideologies you are still the enemy and don't stop being a target.

I'm not aware of Belgium dropping bombs but they are a target nonetheless

 

[sb_73]

Could it not just be one part of a wider policy? And you're not bombing a whole country. These are precision air strikes and identified targets or laser guided at ISIS fighters that are guided in often by Kurds and Yazidi's who you would otherwise callously have left to the mercy of torturing, rapist murderers.

"Peace in our time" does spring to mind as Col alluded to

Internet will radicalise young Brits regardless of we are taking them on or letting them grow. They targeted in France, a concert a football match people in restaurants in cafe's because they were attacking a way of life. Those attacks will happen regardless of whether bombs are currently being dropped unless you conform to their strict ideologies you are still the enemy and don't stop being a target.

I'm not aware of Belgium dropping bombs but they are a target nonetheless

Yeah, 'peace in our time', Chamberlain, Halifax.......****ing pacifist Tories.

 

[rangercol]

Could it not just be one part of a wider policy? And you're not bombing a whole country. These are precision air strikes and identified targets or laser guided at ISIS fighters that are guided in often by Kurds and Yazidi's who you would otherwise callously have left to the mercy of torturing, rapist murderers.

"Peace in our time" does spring to mind as Col alluded to

Internet will radicalise young Brits regardless of we are taking them on or letting them grow. They targeted in France, a concert a football match people in restaurants in cafe's because they were attacking a way of life. Those attacks will happen regardless of whether bombs are currently being dropped unless you conform to their strict ideologies you are still the enemy and don't stop being a target.

I'm not aware of Belgium dropping bombs but they are a target nonetheless

Belgium has been reduced to ordering people to stay off the streets and away from areas where people congregate.

We are at war, but the West is sleepwalking into it!

 

[TWGWTDT]

My company, which is top 15 in terms of size, spends about 25% of turnover on R&D, that's about $5bn a year. I think most of the serious 'innovative' companies spend at least 20%. It is estimated that the total industry spend on R&D will be over $140bn this year. It's a very collaborative process, firms work with each other, academia, start up biotechs, whoever to find stuff. But it's how productive this spend is that's important. Most of it produces nothing except data about what doesn't work (useful in itself), rather than effective and safe medicines. So if the G20 put in £1bn each you would certainly add to scientific knowledge, but not necessarily find any cures. This is why the private sector takes the risks and tries to charge as much as it can get away with for the relatively few products we actually get to sell, for the limited patent lives we have to sell them in. We do all right out of it though.

To give you an insight on the generic market in which I worked in R&D for 15 years. The production methods for most licenced products are started secretly worldwide by the generic companies. The packaging, the contracts the logistics are all prepared well in advance so when a licensed product goes generic it is in effect ready for market and this sector is cut throat
a drug on patent that can be copied already is and in most cases it is actually improved
I have seen personally the amount of bribery that takes place to GPs and the NHS prior to a generic launch
I worked for Teva pharma for years before I quit on ethical reasons as so much was often throw away
I later went on to design the patient packs I see on any visit to a pharmacy in the Teva brand
The mark up on generics used to be criminal IMO and most good licenced products had just 7 years to recover their R&D. During my time I was involved in improving the production and stability of existing solid dose products to flood and control the markets. Manufacturing plants were moved off shore and English jobs lost forever. I had never really recovered from those days of shame

Today I honestly can understand how illness means profit

 

[TWGWTDT]

I would have said that Thatcher was a much bigger factor in the disintegration of our industrial base.

Britain adding to the bombing in Syria wouldn't actually achieve much, other than to make us more of a target for terrorists. Rather than this I would support our contributing to a global coalition of ground forces (UN sanctioned) to crush Daesh. Then deal with Assad. As ever though, the problem is what do you leave behind?

It's a joke IMO bombing people
How does anymore think after recent records that the bombed are suddenly going to accept it because we think it's right
IMO you go in on the ground collectively in massive numbers and with massive fury to fight the snakes

 

[rangercol]

It's a joke IMO bombing people
How does anymore think after recent records that the bombed are suddenly going to accept it because we think it's right
IMO you go in on the ground collectively in massive numbers and with massive fury to fight the snakes

I agree that bombing alone is not the answer.
IMO we need to put everything else aside, including our dislike for Asaad and join forces with Russia, America, other western allies and some middle east allies and go in with a large army. An army of 150,000 plus would wipe out IS in a relatively short space of time imo.