Off Topic The Politics Thread

[GoldhawkRoad]

In other news, apparently the NHS, on the verge of collapse due to alleged underfunding, spent £4m on homeopathy last year. A tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, but enough to make my blood boil. Homeopathy is literally water, the only benefits it can deliver is the placebo effect. So we have spent £4m on water, and even worse we have doctors who have been expensively trained to be scientists prescribing water.FFS.

I agree that most of homeopathy is hokum, although conventional medicine should not turn its head away from it entirely. It needs to pick the good from the bad.

I'm increasingly of the view that patients should make a financial contribution to treatment when they can afford it. In Australia, workers pay into the scheme and pay something for doctors appointments etc and its means tested. It works, and the effect is that fewer patients bother their GP's asking for antibiotics for a head cold. I also think there should be a charge for missed doctor's appointments in the absence of a credible reason.

 

[sb_73]

Not sure where you get your export/import figures from Stan. The following is from the Office for National Statistics (figures released 26 June this year):

"The EU in 2014 accounted for 44.6% of UK exports of goods and services, and 53.2% of UK imports of goods and services. However, strong economic growth in many developing economies outside the EU has resulted in non-EU economies growing in importance to UK trade, with the proportion accounted for by the EU falling consistently since 1999, despite the value of EU trade increasing."

"Faster growth in the value of UK imports compared to exports with the EU has resulted in the UK’s overall trade balance with the EU deteriorating (value of imports exceeding exports), with the trade deficit widening notably, reaching £61.6 billion in 2014 compared with £11.2 billion in 1999."

So we buy hugely more from EU countries, than we sell to them. And our trade with no-EU countries is going up, particularly the developing countries, while trade with the EU has been falling consistently for more than 15 years.

The only reason EU leaders seem relaxed about a referendum here, is that Cameron had been so weak on negotiations, and they feel confident they can give him a bag of nothing, and he'll take it back to the UK and recommend we stay in.

The Jose Bosingwa analogy is emotive (particularly to a QPR fan...) but it's not born out by the facts. We are the second largest contributor to the EU and our proportion is rising annually (spent on important stuff like subsidising French agriculture). It is effectively a tax on the UK for being prosperous.

I understand why, subjectively, you feel that free movement of people has been good for your family. And that's fine, you will vote accordingly. But it doesn't change the facts, objectively.

Stats from the Office for Budget Responsibility. But it doesn't really matter who we trade with, on goods we will always be in deficit as we are a post modern economy (possibly the most post modern in the world), and the profit on trade is dispersed world wide through the global ownership of companies. It doesn't matter how many Jags and Land Rovers are sold in China, the profits are shared between Tata's shareholders. And they are welcome to it, the contribution they make to the UK is the employment they create directly and indirectly and the tax paid by those employees and Land Rover Jaguar probably wouldn't exist without them.

I would be interested in your view as to why the 6th biggest economy in the world (actually most lists put us 5th, especially when the biggest economy, the EU, is excluded) sells less to India than the 25th though ( the chocolate theory to one side). Belgium is 12th in the list, we are not even in the top 15, lower than Iran and city states like Singapore and Hong Kong.

I'm not going to argue that the EU always (or even often) spends its money wisely, but the principle that the more prosperous parts of it contribute more to make the poorer bits more prosperous, eventually to the stage where all things economic are equal and we have a genuinely open market is fine by me. Though I won't be holding my breath for it to happen, because it would require structural changes that are almost impossible to achieve. I suppose part of the shift is Bulgarian migrants to the UK remit part of their earnings back to Bulgaria helping to make it a richer, nicer place to live and reducing the pull of migration. The EU is a co-operative concept, if we are in with an 'us and them' mindset it won't work well for us.

The facts are neutral, all interpretations of them, including mine, are subjective/biased. If there was a single, clear, objective, interpretation of them there would be no debate.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Stats from the Office for Budget Responsibility. But it doesn't really matter who we trade with, on goods we will always be in deficit as we are a post modern economy (possibly the most post modern in the world), and the profit on trade is dispersed world wide through the global ownership of companies. It doesn't matter how many Jags and Land Rovers are sold in China, the profits are shared between Tata's shareholders. And they are welcome to it, the contribution they make to the UK is the employment they create directly and indirectly and the tax paid by those employees and Land Rover Jaguar probably wouldn't exist without them.

I would be interested in your view as to why the 6th biggest economy in the world (actually most lists put us 5th, especially when the biggest economy, the EU, is excluded) sells less to India than the 25th though ( the chocolate theory to one side). Belgium is 12th in the list, we are not even in the top 15, lower than Iran and city states like Singapore and Hong Kong.

I'm not going to argue that the EU always (or even often) spends its money wisely, but the principle that the more prosperous parts of it contribute more to make the poorer bits more prosperous, eventually to the stage where all things economic are equal and we have a genuinely open market is fine by me. Though I won't be holding my breath for it to happen, because it would require structural changes that are almost impossible to achieve. I suppose part of the shift is Bulgarian migrants to the UK remit part of their earnings back to Bulgaria helping to make it a richer, nicer place to live and reducing the pull of migration. The EU is a co-operative concept, if we are in with an 'us and them' mindset it won't work well for us.

The facts are neutral, all interpretations of them, including mine, are subjective/biased. If there was a single, clear, objective, interpretation of them there would be no debate.

The UK seems to have ignored India for exports (we're the 8th biggest importer), which is strange given our shared history and common language (for business purposes anyway). The events this week with the Indian prime minister are clearly aimed at redressing this.

The "spread the wealth" argument in the EU is hardest for the poorest families in the UK that see monies go out, often used unwisely or unfairly by the EU. It's a step too far, in my view, to try to bring about the equality of economies in Europe in one lifetime. It makes it all the more difficult when relatively poor countries join the club. I don't think Turkey's accession is far off, particularly as it has Europe by the testicles over African migration. Ukraine will come in thereafter...etc...

 

[rangercol]

Dead right I get nervous with patriotism, and not just English patriotism. After all, as that famous Englishman Samuel Johnson said "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel". What does your patriotism mean in practical rather than emotional terms Col? The immigration thing I get (I haven't mentioned it in this part of this thread but Indo below) but I assume there is more to it than that.

I'm not against controlled immigration at all. I think that immigration has richly enhanced this Country. However, the Blair government have openly admitted that they operated an "open door policy" as a cultural experiment. IMO this has been a complete disaster and I really don't think a multi-cultural Britain is working at all. There are growing numbers of ghettos with more and more sections of society keeping themselves to themselves and not wishing to interact with other people in this Country.
I think that, if you join another Country, you should make every effort to integrate with the indigenous population. The strain on services is becoming huge and the social problems caused by ****ing religious beliefs are going to get much worse imo.

My patriotism is just something that I've always felt. It's not blind...........I know that this Country does and has done many bad things (like any other Country). However, I do feel that the people of this Country are a truly remarkable Island race and that we should always govern ourselves. I don't want to be governed by a lying bureaucrat from Brussels or wherever. If the EU don't like the result of a referendum they simply call another one. Their accounts haven't been signed off for many, many years and many involved at the top openly admit that they want a Federal Europe. One -size fits all politics don't work imo. Look at the mess that the Euro currency is in. Many, many people wanted us to join. Thank God Brown didn't let it happen.

I freely admit that I don't like the speed of change in my Country. A lot of areas actually don't look like the kind of Britain I grew up in and I don't like it.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I'm not against controlled immigration at all. I think that immigration has richly enhanced this Country. However, the Blair government have openly admitted that they operated an "open door policy" as a cultural experiment. IMO this has been a complete disaster and I really don't think a multi-cultural Britain is working at all. There are growing numbers of ghettos with more and more sections of society keeping themselves to themselves and not wishing to interact with other people in this Country.
I think that, if you join another Country, you should make every effort to integrate with the indigenous population. The strain on services is becoming huge and the social problems caused by ****ing religious beliefs are going to get much worse imo.

My patriotism is just something that I've always felt. It's not blind...........I know that this Country does and has done many bad things (like any other Country). However, I do feel that the people of this Country are a truly remarkable Island race and that we should always govern ourselves. I don't want to be governed by a lying bureaucrat from Brussels or wherever. If the EU don't like the result of a referendum they simply call another one. Their accounts haven't been signed off for many, many years and many involved at the top openly admit that they want a Federal Europe. One -size fits all politics don't work imo. Look at the mess that the Euro currency is in. Many, many people wanted us to join. Thank God Brown didn't let it happen.

I freely admit that I don't like the speed of change in my Country. A lot of areas actually don't look like the kind of Britain I grew up in and I don't like it.

Great post. Advising not to join the euro, in the face of an enthusiastic Tony Blair, was the best thing Gordon Brown ever did for this country.

 

[Stroller]

[QUOTE="rangercol, post: 8583811, member: 1006791 There are growing numbers of ghettos with more and more sections of society keeping themselves to themselves and not wishing to interact with other people in this Country.
[/QUOTE]

I agree that this is a problem, but it relates more to immigration from outside the EU and is therefore more controllable. Immigration fears are not a sensible reason for anyone to vote No in the referendum it seems to me. EU immigrants have benefitted the economy overall, in contrast to recent immigrants from non-EU countries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ion-from-outside-Europe-cost-120-billion.html

 

[rangercol]

[QUOTE="rangercol, post: 8583811, member: 1006791 There are growing numbers of ghettos with more and more sections of society keeping themselves to themselves and not wishing to interact with other people in this Country.

I agree that this is a problem, but it relates more to immigration from outside the EU and is therefore more controllable. Immigration fears are not a sensible reason for anyone to vote No in the referendum it seems to me. EU immigrants have benefitted the economy overall, in contrast to recent immigrants from non-EU countries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ion-from-outside-Europe-cost-120-billion.html[/QUOTE]

I hope I haven't given the impression that I would vote to come out because of immigration.
No single factor will make any difference to me. I simply don't want to be a part of the European union.

 

[Stroller]

I agree that this is a problem, but it relates more to immigration from outside the EU and is therefore more controllable. Immigration fears are not a sensible reason for anyone to vote No in the referendum it seems to me. EU immigrants have benefitted the economy overall, in contrast to recent immigrants from non-EU countries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ion-from-outside-Europe-cost-120-billion.html

I hope I haven't given the impression that I would vote to come out because of immigration.
No single factor will make any difference to me. I simply don't want to be a part of the European union.[/QUOTE]

I know it's not an immigration thing with you, Col, but I fear that it will be with a large part of the electorate. The scouse UKIP fella was on QT last night banging on about our having 'opened our doors to 450 million EU inhabitants'.

 

[rangercol]

I hope I haven't given the impression that I would vote to come out because of immigration.
No single factor will make any difference to me. I simply don't want to be a part of the European union.

I know it's not an immigration thing with you, Col, but I fear that it will be with a large part of the electorate. The scouse UKIP fella was on QT last night banging on about our having 'opened our doors to 450 million EU inhabitants'.[/QUOTE]

He always comes across as a complete knob imo.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I know it's not an immigration thing with you, Col, but I fear that it will be with a large part of the electorate. The scouse UKIP fella was on QT last night banging on about our having 'opened our doors to 450 million EU inhabitants'.

He always comes across as a complete knob imo.

Paul Nuttall. Quite well named if Question Time ever comes to blows...

 

[TWGWTDT]

Lads here's a challenge
Look around you there will be a non British person next to you... Where you work? friends or family

We live in international global and European times and it can't be reversed ever The change is forever and IMO the UK has become a heaven desitination

The breakdown of exactly what heaven is ... Is my point

Making up rules now and how heaven should be run is IMO too late because it's too complex

I share Col's comment about what is it becoming and I have acted on it just to connect back to my farming roots. I have t got it sussed by the way but can share a few current facts which I hope make my fellow QPR fans understand

I have no debts ... None
My partner has two London houses with massive mortgages but massive value ... She has debt
The London rates are massive
My partner and I.purchased a new home in rural France 6 bedrooms
£43.000 quid plus a acre of garden , orchards and my own river .
I pay €230 rates and Tax and my bins are emptied very two days. My hamlet has council flower beds and free Xmas decorations

I have just purchased three months of flights the min is wait for it ... £14 return the max is £32 return.
To travel one day to work in the UK costs me £28 on a train

This is not about me This is about contrasts and what it costs to live in Heaven and what has become
Black Friday soon lads

This is a trend and it's happening a lot now. I have not got anything sussed but I am working towards the best lifestyle I can because I cannot change the country I love.

I don't think it can be changed so I will flirt between the two to watch my football team and work

I honestly have very little faith in any politics in the UK and don't want to understand the French system. I need to fish shoot and hunt and most important watch QPR

Gentlemen discuss your figures on this and that but if you question happiness even once a month ... Please do something about it before the other heaven arrives because it will

 

[TWGWTDT]

I know it's not an immigration thing with you, Col, but I fear that it will be with a large part of the electorate. The scouse UKIP fella was on QT last night banging on about our having 'opened our doors to 450 million EU inhabitants'.

He always comes across as a complete knob imo.[/QUOTE]

450 million is everyone in Europe who can walk. I need to book more flights

 

[TWGWTDT]

I hope I haven't given the impression that I would vote to come out because of immigration.
No single factor will make any difference to me. I simply don't want to be a part of the European union.

I know it's not an immigration thing with you, Col, but I fear that it will be with a large part of the electorate. The scouse UKIP fella was on QT last night banging on about our having 'opened our doors to 450 million EU inhabitants'.[/QUOTE]

Wait until the pound is re valued
It will happen and the interest will go up... That's when we will see some action

 

[TWGWTDT]

I'm not against controlled immigration at all. I think that immigration has richly enhanced this Country. However, the Blair government have openly admitted that they operated an "open door policy" as a cultural experiment. IMO this has been a complete disaster and I really don't think a multi-cultural Britain is working at all. There are growing numbers of ghettos with more and more sections of society keeping themselves to themselves and not wishing to interact with other people in this Country.
I think that, if you join another Country, you should make every effort to integrate with the indigenous population. The strain on services is becoming huge and the social problems caused by ****ing religious beliefs are going to get much worse imo.

My patriotism is just something that I've always felt. It's not blind...........I know that this Country does and has done many bad things (like any other Country). However, I do feel that the people of this Country are a truly remarkable Island race and that we should always govern ourselves. I don't want to be governed by a lying bureaucrat from Brussels or wherever. If the EU don't like the result of a referendum they simply call another one. Their accounts haven't been signed off for many, many years and many involved at the top openly admit that they want a Federal Europe. One -size fits all politics don't work imo. Look at the mess that the Euro currency is in. Many, many people wanted us to join. Thank God Brown didn't let it happen.

I freely admit that I don't like the speed of change in my Country. A lot of areas actually don't look like the kind of Britain I grew up in and I don't like it.

The only point I challenge on this is the ghettos one... More and more British people are isolating themselves also. So what culture is left?

Dreams and history IMO

Both lovely things but what good are they?

 

[sb_73]

I'm not against controlled immigration at all. I think that immigration has richly enhanced this Country. However, the Blair government have openly admitted that they operated an "open door policy" as a cultural experiment. IMO this has been a complete disaster and I really don't think a multi-cultural Britain is working at all. There are growing numbers of ghettos with more and more sections of society keeping themselves to themselves and not wishing to interact with other people in this Country.
I think that, if you join another Country, you should make every effort to integrate with the indigenous population. The strain on services is becoming huge and the social problems caused by ****ing religious beliefs are going to get much worse imo.

My patriotism is just something that I've always felt. It's not blind...........I know that this Country does and has done many bad things (like any other Country). However, I do feel that the people of this Country are a truly remarkable Island race and that we should always govern ourselves. I don't want to be governed by a lying bureaucrat from Brussels or wherever. If the EU don't like the result of a referendum they simply call another one. Their accounts haven't been signed off for many, many years and many involved at the top openly admit that they want a Federal Europe. One -size fits all politics don't work imo. Look at the mess that the Euro currency is in. Many, many people wanted us to join. Thank God Brown didn't let it happen.

I freely admit that I don't like the speed of change in my Country. A lot of areas actually don't look like the kind of Britain I grew up in and I don't like it.

Sounds of the Seventies is on BBC4 now if that helps Col. ****ing hell its Captain and Tenille.

It may surprise you but I get all of that and agree with chunks of it. I get overwhelmingly nostalgic about certain things. I regularly piss my family off by refusing to go to certain places that I loved in the seventies and eighties on the grounds that they will be **** now (experience has shown me correct on this). I think it's part of getting old, and it's not a new phenomenon, have a look at George Orwell's Coming Up for Air, about a man trying to find the idyllic rural England of his childhood in the 1920s. Personally I'd like the Internet to break down for a few months, if not permanently. It's a curse.

Spain all over us. ****ing Europeans.

 

[rangercol]

The only point I challenge on this is the ghettos one... More and more British people are isolating themselves also. So what culture is left?

Dreams and history IMO

Both lovely things but what good are they?

British people are isolating themselves in their own Country. Totally wrong imo.

 

[sb_73]

Horrible **** happening again in Paris. Probably the usual suspects responsible.

 

[rangercol]

Here we go again!!

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Horrible **** happening again in Paris. Probably the usual suspects responsible.

Terror in Paris. It's getting repetitive. Just another "Je suis..." march later won't cut it anymore. A major issue for liberal France now

 

[sb_73]

Terror in Paris. It's getting repetitive. Just another "Je suis..." march later won't cut it anymore. A major issue for liberal France now

It's a major issue for their intelligence services rather than their liberality. Hebdo, the stuff on the train, now this - probably we would have had just as many here without intelligence and preventative action which rightly isn't talked about much.

BBC news being very cagey on numbers on TV, but saying 18 dead on website.