Off Topic Bill Nicholson Arms

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About as far off topic as you can get, but am so wound up about the Hinkley Point nuclear deal that I had to write something. We sacrificed our own nuclear industry to the alter of privatisation, and now we are completely dependent upon the state nuclear industries of France and China to build this new station as astronomical cost. The obvious points:

1. Do people realise that this is not a private deal, the French and Chinese companies involved are not private companies, they are state companies. So given the astonishing guaranteed and index linked payment for electricity generation, the effect is of the British people subsidising the French and Chinese!
2. This type of nuclear reactor is not in operation yet anywhere, so how likely is it that it will be built on time and to budget?
3. Who is paying for any cost and time overruns, and for decommissioning? Are people aware that the decomissioning costs of existing nuclear power stations are paid for by the state, not by the companies that now own them?

Particularly wound up about this as I used to work for the CEGB (the nationalised electricity industry just before it was privatised). Not trying to make a political point, well perhaps I am, but when Corbyn was elected Labour leader the Tories made a big thing about this being bad for the security of the country. Yet apparently the security of the country is not an issue when the Chinese get to build a nuclear power station here - you know the country with all those great human rights.
 
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"About as far off topic as you can get, but am so wound up about the Hinkley Point nuclear deal that I had to write something. We sacrificed our own nuclear industry to the alter of privatisation, and now we are completely dependent upon the state nuclear industries of France and China to build this new station as astronomical cost. ..."

More about sacrificing the industry on the altar of environmental correctness
( 'nuclear bad' etc) than anything.

So the first issue you have is no skill base capable of building new or maintaining
existing reactors (the IEEE had an article a couple of years ago about this and the
effects in the USA - the skill base retiring and hardly any new blood entering the industry) .

If you consequently have to have new reactors designed (and possibly built) with
overseas resource, that is ok, if the operating is going to be done locally, and for every
component that comprises the plant, the UK has the full specs so they can if necessary
manufacture said components.

The latter is already done for things like military / safety-critical electronics.

Anyway, on "Back to the future" day, where is my commodity fusion reactor taking
anything as fuel source ... ??
 
To go a little further with the nuclear plant deal, there's something else that needs to be considered: back in September, Forbes wrote a piece on how China produces more steel than the country needs, so are exporting it cheaply - which is having a devastating effect on steel industries worldwide as they are getting seriously undercut with the Chinese steel that has flooded the global marketplace.

Also back in September, that sniveling little skidmark George Osborne spent five days in China schmoozing up to Chinese business leaders with the usual mealy-mouthed and easily disproved bullshit about boosting the UK economy, yet within a month of his visit the UK economy has been boosted by large job cuts across the steel industry on both sides of the border with Caparo and Tata the latest to introduce massive job cuts - at the same time it's announced that China are getting a nice big contract to help build a nuclear reactor.

I can't be alone in seeing a connection here can I? Osborne pops over to Beijing to press the flesh and spread the buttocks, and it doesn't take Fox Mulder to wonder what was offered to grease the wheels in order to get the contract, for example a pledge to import even more of that nice, cheap Chinese steel.
 
humanbeingincroydon said:
To go a little further with the nuclear plant deal, there's something else that needs to be considered: back in September, Forbes wrote a piece on how China produces more steel than the country needs, so are exporting it cheaply - which is having a devastating effect on steel industries worldwide as they are getting seriously undercut with the Chinese steel that has flooded the global marketplace.

Also back in September, that sniveling little skidmark George Osborne spent five days in China schmoozing up to Chinese business leaders with the usual mealy-mouthed and easily disproved bullshit about boosting the UK economy, yet within a month of his visit the UK economy has been boosted by large job cuts across the steel industry on both sides of the border with Caparo and Tata the latest to introduce massive job cuts - at the same time it's announced that China are getting a nice big contract to help build a nuclear reactor.

I can't be alone in seeing a connection here can I? Osborne pops over to Beijing to press the flesh and spread the buttocks, and it doesn't take Fox Mulder to wonder what was offered to grease the wheels in order to get the contract, for example a pledge to import even more of that nice, cheap Chinese steel.
Click to expand...
And when the rest of the world has no steel industry, surprise surprise the Chinese steel suddenly becomes more expensive than it would have been if everybody had kept their own steel industries. Think back to mass production cars, motorcycles, televisions and cameras. We used to make lots of these but we all bought cheap Japanese imports. Now we have a few niche market car and motorbike manufacturers. Will we never learn?
 
If Osbourne was a secret agent for the Chinese how could he do better than subsidising them to build a non-economic nuclear power station of their own design within 50 miles of London. I wonder how we are going to be sure that the power station can't be controlled from Beijing through some judicious backdoors in the software.
If Corbyn had proposed this I can't imagine the reaction.
 
PowerSpurs said:
If Osbourne was a secret agent for the Chinese how could he do better than subsidising them to build a non-economic nuclear power station of their own design within 50 miles of London. I wonder how we are going to be sure that the power station can't be controlled from Beijing through some judicious backdoors in the software.
If Corbyn had proposed this I can't imagine the reaction.
Click to expand...
The people protesting outside Buckingham Palace about China's human rights record would be better served protesting outside Downing Street at Cameron selling the country down the river yet again.
 
With the Chinese economy supposedly on the decline(as reported) the question is:- What is Cameron getting out of it!?A nice fat check sent to a "quiet" bank out of the country?
 
If the French and Chinese are investing, presumably the thing is going to be profitable (for them). So if that's the case, why can't the investment come from the UK? Billions are available for bailing out the banks and apparently for building a (marginally?) useful high speed train track, but not for keeping our own industries going, like steel making - again sacrificed to global "competition", even where that competition is not fair - Chinese producers don't pay anything like market energy or raw material costs for example, I think people are encouraged to believe it's because our labour costs are more expensive than Chinese, even where the difference is less than people believe and where (in the case of steel), labour costs represent less than 10% of the product costs. One of the problem with neoliberal economics is the assumption that the Western economies used this business model to get where they are today, which is simply not true. They used tariffs, protectionism and unfair trade - just as the Chinese are now and the South Koreans did before them, and it simply doesn't work if we keep our markets free of such things because we simply get destroyed by those that do.
 
A terrible example of China's human rights record is when a guy protested by standing in the street holding up a piece of paper, only for a police officer to charge in and attempt to tackle him to the ground before five officers bundled him out of sight, and for his troubles his house was searched under the flimsiest of excuses just so he knew that he was powerless and that protesting would never amount to anything because he could be arrested any time the police could fabricate an excuse.

Oh, wait, that's what the Metropolitan Police did to a Chinese man this week...
 
"If the French and Chinese are investing, presumably the thing is going to be profitable (for them)."

On paper, both nations have an actual industry capable of designing and building the things.
If I put the money up right now, is there a peer industry in the UK collectively capable of doing
the job ??


"One of the problem with neoliberal economics is the assumption that the Western economies used this
business model to get where they are today, which is simply not true. They used tariffs, protectionism and unfair trade -
just as the Chinese are now and the South Koreans did before them, and it simply doesn't work if we keep our markets
free of such things because we simply get destroyed by those that do."

China are getting away with it because of the salivating over the size of their potential consumer base.
If it was Azerbaijan etc dumping on the steel markets like this, the EU et al would be trade embargoing
their brains out.

Only the USA currently has the economic scale to engage in these kinds of dogfights with China.

The UK OTOH has a reputation of playing by the rules (EU edicts etc) regardless of the damage it may
do to national interests.
 
Beautiful quote from the soon-to-be Leader of the Free World™, Sir Donald of the Trump:
"It has not been easy for me. I started off in Brooklyn. My father gave me a small loan of a million dollars." <laugh>
 
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