Does anyone else feel the same?

[Pelletron]

Can't help feeling this might have been discussed before. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. I remember thinking the same thing when we sold David Webb and Martin Chivers to Chelsea and Spurs respectively. Then we sold Shearer, Kenna and Flowers to Blackburn. Stevie Williams and the Wallace brothers followed. Then there was Mark Wright, Neil Ruddock, Wayne bridge, Andy Townsend. The list goes on and on......

The difference now is that loyalty lasts from 8 years of age to about 22 as opposed to 18-24. So when we see players like JWP, Reed, Targett and Isgrove breaking into the first team we should feel proud and when they go to better themselves we should wish them the best of luck ( Lallana excepted of course). We may need a few transient Europeans to fill the void whilst the next batch develops but if they stay too long they will hold up the development squad.

Enjoy the ride. Every now and again there will be a rare gem that truly loves the club and stays. Fonte being the classic example. Possibly JWP too.

Agree with most of what's being said here, but I just want to repeat what I say a fair amount: Fonte is not an exception. I love the guy as much as anyone on here, but he's only really had one universally-acclaimed PL season (last season) here (even if we can with hindsight acknowledge now his influence on Lovren the season before that - where at the time we believed the influence to flow the other way), and he is in his 30s. If he was 25 or 26, he'd be gone too.

There's actually a mathematical equation: injured +/- 30 or over +/- not that good = loyal player.

 

[fatletiss]

Yes you're right, it is down to the players but this is the football environment now. I think that the club need to accept this and possibly adjust the wage structure. I'm not sure that we can continue to challenge for the top 6 when paying bottom 6 wages (I remember seeing a table where we were 14/15th in terms of wages?). I'm not saying pay £100k a week for Chris Samba but surely we can be sensible? Maybe spacedsaint above is right, was regularly challenging for Europe part of the old regimes ambitions? Will the black box keep churning out gems to flog forever?

Don't forget that whatever wages we pay (within an increased structure) those teams already mentioned can dwarf them. The players will still be chased and wanted. The balance of power is too far in the players' favour for this to change in the short term. We are trying to do things in a sensible fashion without jeopardizing the club's future.

What is our average first team wage - a guess says 40K?
What is the average wage of those top teams - 100k? Maybe even higher

(To make this comparable, imagine taking out the bottom 10% in each squad so as to remove the anomalies of a James Wilson at United and a Matt Targett at Saints)

If you changed our structure, how close does it need to bridge the gap to prevent players wanting that move for big bucks?

It is tough, but it is where we are. How would people feel if shirts became 100 quid a pop and ticket prices were trebled, or the club get a sponsor in called " We rip people off with loans.com" ... all these things need to be taken into consideration when we look at the big picture.

 

[fatletiss]

By the way, I think we are talking about "psychological" effects here, rather than "physiological". Sorry to be pedantic!

I don't know Chilco, my shoulders have slumped since last season

 

[Schad]

Take out those eight clubs and we are competing surely.

Our total wage bill for '13/'14 was 16th in the league, and that was before we sold off most of our highest earners:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-wage-table-revealed-5560964

Worth noting that two of the four teams below us (and one above, thanks QPR) also weren't in the Premier League that season. Of the three relegated teams that year, Fulham was above us, and Norwich/Cardiff were close but (I believe) a fraction below.


Now, whether we'd be willing to jump our wage bill but haven't been able to simply because players wouldn't sign new deals is open for debate, but we pay far less than the teams around us in the table.

 

[Velcro Roy]

Our total wage bill for '13/'14 was 16th in the league, and that was before we sold off most of our highest earners:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-wage-table-revealed-5560964

Worth noting that two of the four teams below us (and one above, thanks QPR) also weren't in the Premier League that season. Of the three relegated teams that year, Fulham was above us, and Norwich/Cardiff were close but (I believe) a fraction below.


Now, whether we'd be willing to jump our wage bill but haven't been able to simply because players wouldn't sign new deals is open for debate, but we pay far less than the teams around us in the table.

Im sure that's correct but you can compete without spending the most money.
As we finished 7th my contention is that we do compete.
This year ? Well we'll see.

 

[Shepherd's Clearing]

Well reading through all the well-considered and thought out replies the overwhelming feeling I get is that we are stuffed really.

The only football club's worth following if you want to win things are the top three and the rest us should feel like we've won the title if our good players stay more than two seasons, and we finish top half of the table.

If you look at it dispassionately you have to think, 'we are we bothering' - I'm only say this with the creed you enter a sporting event to win it, otherwise why have you entered?

We are strange us human beings, very strange.

 

[Archers Road]

2 questions spring to mind;

1) would we even be having this conversation if we'd started the season strongly? And;

2) Forget the players, haven't the club and the people who currently own and run it done enough in the last few seasons to earn our trust? And are we in danger of behaving like a bunch of quivering jellyfish? Okay, that's 3 questions.

 

[Onionman]

Well reading through all the well-considered and thought out replies the overwhelming feeling I get is that we are stuffed really.

The only football club's worth following if you want to win things are the top three and the rest us should feel like we've won the title if our good players stay more than two seasons, and we finish top half of the table.

If you look at it dispassionately you have to think, 'we are we bothering' - I'm only say this with the creed you enter a sporting event to win it, otherwise why have you entered?

We are strange us human beings, very strange.

I would be surprised if we're trying anything other than "to win it". However I'm sure the powers that be at Saints know it will take time. So, wanting to finish as high as possible while we build up the financial capacity required to win may be the best we can hope for in the short term. The struggle is that many supporters want us to win the league soon.

As it happens, I'm a very patient person and I love delayed gratification so I'm happy with what the club's doing and I don't see strangeness in this approach at all.

Vin

 

[oldstocktonsaint]

After reading all the posts, agree with nearly everything, I thought I'd jump in with this thought from my Sunderland mate. Sunderland pay high wages to average players who they cannot get rid of. With a crowd of 47,000 every week regardless of results, they have the money but waste it on a duff squad. I prefer our way at the moment, until we get relegated by selling off the silver.

 

[fran-MLs little camera]

Well reading through all the well-considered and thought out replies the overwhelming feeling I get is that we are stuffed really.

The only football club's worth following if you want to win things are the top three and the rest us should feel like we've won the title if our good players stay more than two seasons, and we finish top half of the table.

If you look at it dispassionately you have to think, 'we are we bothering' - I'm only say this with the creed you enter a sporting event to win it, otherwise why have you entered?

We are strange us human beings, very strange.

The ideal is to win, but if you only entered a competition to win, the league would consist of 4 teams, only a few athletes would enter each event at the Olympics, and a couple of teams would play each other in the cricket world cup. You enter competitions to see how far you can go and to try and improve.

 

[fatletiss]

I expected the usual comments of people saying 'you should support the club and not the players' etc. Of course I do. It seems that a lot of people agree with me though and it is a shame. As you say, this is the trajectory that football has been on for years.

In terms of loyalty from youth players, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that this could be the case. Even then, we seem content with selling them anyhow. Perhaps if we continue to compete at our current level they may be happier to stay to develop. I have no problem with them leaving at 23/24 for a shot at the Champions League - similar to what Morgan has done.

But what if they are good enough to play at that level before this age and we haven't reached that level. I am playing devil's advocate here, but we can't expect people to stay because it suits us.

We are not "content with selling them anyhow" as you put it, but often a case of selling them or they go for nothing at the end of a contract.

 

[fatletiss]

2 questions spring to mind;

1) would we even be having this conversation if we'd started the season strongly? And;

2) Forget the players, haven't the club and the people who currently own and run it done enough in the last few seasons to earn our trust? And are we in danger of behaving like a bunch of quivering jellyfish? Okay, that's 3 questions.

I would even go as far to say that it isn't our trust that they should have earned, but our acceptance of what happens next, whether good or bad. They have mine.

 

[Schad]

Im sure that's correct but you can compete without spending the most money.
As we finished 7th my contention is that we do compete.
This year ? Well we'll see.

Certainly; it just adds further to the degree of difficulty.

The big question is what will happen with our growing warchest if we take a significant step back. Opting not to spend for the sake of spending is understandable, but if we fall into the 11th-15th range this season, and are faced with the prospect of further sales in the summer of 2016, do we persist with what amounts to a sell-to-buy transfer policy and one of the lowest wage bills in the league, or does the chequebook come out?

 

[SouthamptonFCroatia]

I don't know Chilco, my shoulders have slumped since last season

Yeah, I nearly facepalmed myself into concussion watching the last match.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

So many interesting points.
Firstly can I say a bedwetter is someone who soils them selves at every random rumour by the press. Remember they want stories NOT truth.
If our team reacted to challenges the way some fans do then we would all be enjoying ourselves on away days to Dagenham.

We need to be strong. This club is trying to alter the status quo and it isn't easy. Times will be tough but we need to pursue our vision and that is to be successful through our own endeavours and that includes us, the fans as well as the players.

We can't just buy success and there are clubs that have proved this.
I applaud Onionman in his championing delayed gratification and we, as Saints supporters, know all about it.

Remember, the top 4 or 6 or whatever, don't want us to upset their cosy little money club, but Sky & BT keep giving them more money that they can use to mess with us.

Be patient, be strong, we are doing this our way and we need to trust our club.
Remember the words of the great philosopher Johannes Belushiano "When the going gets tough, the tough get going!!!"

 

[Shenanigans]

Sorry, long post alert! (again!)

If you look around the prem over the last few years you will see various strategies to improve...

Buy only proven prem players
Buy the best players from abroad
Buy the best youth (loan most out, keep the best and sell others for big money)
Buy the best youth and train them yourself
Buy aging players who have left big clubs (and pay big wages)
Buy young players with potential and make them better, while bringing through your own youth
Buy the best of the football league
Buy players who are big/hard working but not flashy
Know your players are not as good as others but try to coach them into a team that works for each other
+others but I cant go on forever

Some of those strategies are aimed at winning the league (and requires big money), others at keeping you in the league (where you don't have money). It is important to have the right strategy for the size of the club, Pompey chose the wrong strategy for the size of the club and we all know where they are now.

Saints have been working on their strategy for years. Have the best scouting systems and the best training facilities and get players to their maximum level.

The key for *every* club is to sell at the right time, Ferguson was a master of this, everyone thinking he was mental for selling a player but in hindsight it was usually the right time to do it. How many of our ex players have gone on to rip it up? How many were on good form when we sold them? Lallana/Clyne were off form after England call ups, were they still playing for the team?

The problem for Saints can be the type of player needed to move the club up the table, we wont be able to buy many players who are already good enough for top 6, we have to buy potential. But to fulfill potential you have to have ambition and drive, these can be the very things that can prompt a player to move on as they become better.

I believe the players bought in this season will improve as individuals, as a team and give us a better squad. Early last season everyone was saying Mane had pace but was very raw and needed to work on his all round game, he is a good example of someone who we have improved massively but his ambition and drive could could see him push for a move. On the other hand, if we didn't have a track record of improving players would we have signed Mane at all?

You have to hope that in the time a player spends with the club they can develop a connection to keep them here, the sort of connection Fonte has with the club/fans... Or that we improve enough as a team to match their ambitions

 

[RedandWhiteManofKent]

This time next week after a positive result in Mu mu land, a win against Norwich and some late activity in the transfer market this will be a different forum.


Ps. If none of the above happen I am buying a one way bus ticket, making sure I am on the same bus journey as Jessica Fletcher from murder she wrote.

 

[fran-MLs little camera]

This time next week after a positive result in Mu mu land, a win against Norwich and some late activity in the transfer market this will be a different forum.


Ps. If none of the above happen I am buying a one way bus ticket, making sure I am on the same bus journey as Jessica Fletcher from murder she wrote.

On the way to Midsomer. Don't do it

 

[saintlyhero]

Southampton's upward trajectory has been pretty unprecedented. To improve your league position 5 seasons in a row and by such mammoth steps is something which fans should never lose sight of when analysing our current on pitch status.

The reality is that a football clubs progress is usually more jagged and when some of us wrote our expectations for this season. I think most expected us to dip in the league.
Our team on Sunday featured only four players who were around during our first season in the premier league (Fonte, Yoshida, Davis & Rodriguez). Players leaving for big money moves has been covered, but lets not forget the turnover of players who were not deemed good enough (of which the list is far larger).

All success is built on strong foundations and Saints are slowly putting together the backbone of a solid EPL squad. The options at Koemans disposal are already better and more varied than at any time since our return to the top flight.

Recent performances have been poor and we're yet to see Koeman find the right balance to the team, but I see no reason why we can't build another team over the next two or three seasons to try and challenge the top 6 again, but this time have the squad depth to sustain a challenge.

 

[Shepherd's Clearing]

The ideal is to win, but if you only entered a competition to win, the league would consist of 4 teams, only a few athletes would enter each event at the Olympics, and a couple of teams would play each other in the cricket world cup. You enter competitions to see how far you can go and to try and improve.

Good point but I do think that Saints saying that they could do it know deep down in the hearts that it's bullshine and of course and athlete taking part in the Olympics may well finish down the field but you can guarantee that they are aiming to win their event in the near future.

We all know that baring a massive cash-injection and some huge club overhaul or the collapse of the Premier League, Saints, and most other clubs will never, ever, win the title or even finish in the top five even.

I just think it's a weird competition really - not having a go at Saints, supporters or anything more of my own personal view on competitive sports.