Off Topic Bill Nicholson Arms

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NowsufferinginSpain said:
I'm not sure it's entirely a matter of 'where did it all go wrong'. Our main rivals in those days were Sheffield Wednesday & Burnley. Compared to them, we're not doing badly.
If it all started going tits up, I guess it was probably in the nineties, as you alluded to. We just seem to lose our way. The Goons hired Whinger, and we hired the three gems you mentioned above.

Up to the early nineties we were winning trophies still. So, I guess it's telling that we have only one one in the last quarter of a century. Before that, it was rarely more than ten years in between winning something.

I think also that we got a bit caught up in this reputation for only playing attractive football, which came to its zenith with the famous five in the nineties. Great entertainment, but could we score one more than we conceded was the thought before any game. Winning things needs pragmatism as well as adventure. It also requires balance in a side, something the double side had in spades. They strived to play attractive football, but could dig in and grind out a result when called for. And in you wanted to play rough, well Mr Mackay would be only to happy to oblige you! It's something I've rarely seen in any Spurs side since, and my feeling is that until we add that 'bit of backbone' to our way of thinking and playing, very little is going to change.
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Very interesting take on the subject and I'm always keen to hear the views of those who have seen more of the Tottenham Tragi-comedy than me!

From my generation's point of view (no offence meant), I guess the defining moment of 'losing our way' was the appallingly ill-advised back to back appointments of Gross and Graham. Those two did more harm to the club in 3 short years than any other manager in the PL era. Graham's style of football was antithetical to the ethos of the club (even that 1999 cup win was one of the most dour games of football I've ever had the pleasure of sitting through), whilst Gross was simply a clown. It is telling that ENIC's first move as new owners was to appoint Hoddle as manager to restore a lot of lost faith amongst the fans, although he was severely undermined by the departures of Ginola and Campbell without being given the funds for adequate replacements (sound familiar?).

<whistle>
 
Spurm said:
I think where it started to all go wrong in the 90s was when Venebles moved upstairs and ultimately out the door. He was a quality manager.
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And yet we finished 13th, 6th and 10th in 3 of his four seasons. Which would make AVB a better manager, surely? <diva> <run>
 
Citizen Kane said:
Very interesting take on the subject and I'm always keen to hear the views of those who have seen more of the Tottenham Tragi-comedy than me!

From my generation's point of view (no offence meant), I guess the defining moment of 'losing our way' was the appallingly ill-advised back to back appointments of Gross and Graham. Those two did more harm to the club in 3 short years than any other manager in the PL era. Graham's style of football was antithetical to the ethos of the club (even that 1999 cup win was one of the most dour games of football I've ever had the pleasure of sitting through), whilst Gross was simply a clown. It is telling that ENIC's first move as new owners was to appoint Hoddle as manager to restore a lot of lost faith amongst the fans, although he was severely undermined by the departures of Ginola and Campbell without being given the funds for adequate replacements (sound familiar?).

<whistle>
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Hoddle was a great player, and is, IMO, a great tactician and thinker about the game. However, his man management skills seem to be virtually non existent, which is what always seems to do for him eventually.
 
NowsufferinginSpain said:
Hoddle was a great player, and is, IMO, a great tactician and thinker about the game. However, his man management skills seem to be virtually non existent, which is what always seems to do for him eventually.
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You won't be surprised to hear that when Hoddle was our manager and he had us top of the table after a great start, I called up a radio phone-in, as the overly positive spurs fans needed to be reminded while Hoddle was a legend, he was out of his depth and we needed to replace him. I was hammered by the "experts"! Fairly hilarious when I remember the debate!

But agreed, he is a deep thinker and suited to international football or working with kids but not cut out for club management long term as I know he done a decent job at swindon, chelsea and saints but his man management skills meant he would eventually get found at club management.
 
I saw a very interesting interview with Hoddle years back where he quite candidly admitted that his man management skills probably suffered because he demanded absolute perfection from his players, without cutting them any slack. He discussed how he always pushed himself harshly as a player (it worked!) and applie. The same philosophy to his players.

That may also be why he's better suited to the international game since he's be dealing with the country's elite who are more used to/able to deal with relentless pressure to achieve perfection.
 
Boss said:
You won't be surprised to hear that when Hoddle was our manager and he had us top of the table after a great start, I called up a radio phone-in, as the overly positive spurs fans needed to be reminded while Hoddle was a legend, he was out of his depth and we needed to replace him. I was hammered by the "experts"! Fairly hilarious when I remember the debate!

But agreed, he is a deep thinker and suited to international football or working with kids but not cut out for club management long term as I know he done a decent job at swindon, chelsea and saints but his man management skills meant he would eventually get found at club management.
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The job of management is exactly that - to manage your 'staff'. That includes, motivational skills, empathy, in other words being able to distinguish who needs a kick up the arse and who needs an arm around the shoulders.

The job of managing the various personalities, and often fragile egos of today's millionaire premier league footballers, is not an easy one. It takes very good man management skills as well as tactical nous. I have little doubt that if Hoddle had any reasonable semblance of skill in the man management area he would be recognized as one of the worlds top coaches.
 
NowsufferinginSpain said:
The job of management is exactly that - to manage your 'staff'. That includes, motivational skills, empathy, in other words being able to distinguish who needs a kick up the arse and who needs an arm around the shoulders.

The job of managing the various personalities, and often fragile egos of today's millionaire premier league footballers, is not an easy one. It takes very good man management skills as well as tactical nous. I have little doubt that if Hoddle had any reasonable semblance of skill in the man management area he would be recognized as one of the worlds top coaches.
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Not sure which player it was, maybe Rio, but they discussed how Hoddle apparently singled out Beckham (in training) as Hoddle could still hold his own or even show players how to score a free kick or make a pass, whether that played a part in Beckhams attitude in that game against Argentina I don't know, but I do remember in that game Hoddle kept interchanging Shearer/Owen from winger/striker to try and keep the Argentina defence guessing while they had a man advantage.

He is a smart tactical/thinker but like we have discussed, lack of man management and you always get found out.

Here is one quote from spunky

There is little doubt that he lost the respect of a number of senior players because of the diary. This is David Seaman: 'We thought it was wrong for him to use us as material for his book without our knowledge. None of us like the way the book singled out players and picked on their bad points. It did not help morale at all.
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"The Motson-narrated stuff seems to be from something official"

Must be the 100th anniversary documentary that Sportsnight showed in 1982.

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The Arthur Rowe bit at the end always gets me (and I am one cold-hearted b**tard) .
 
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NowsufferinginSpain said:
So, I guess it's telling that we have only one one in the last quarter of a century. Before that, it was rarely more than ten years in between winning something.
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We still have not gone more than ten years between winning trophies....we're actually the only club in England to win a trophy in each of the last six full decades
 
PowerSpurs said:
We still have not gone more than ten years between winning trophies....we're actually the only club in England to win a trophy in each of the last six full decades
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I make 1991 - 2008 to be 17 years.

The C.C. cup we won the only trophy in virtually a quarter of a century.
 
I missed the 2008 Carling cup final, i got stranded at Luton station, i'm still not sure what went wrong, drink was involved. Being stranded at Luton station is bad enough at the best of times but even worse when you're missing out on the best day Spurs have had while you've been an "adult".
I remember 1999 fondly, because it was really the first trophy i watched us win (technically i watched 1991 but i was only 10 and more interested in other sports at the time).
Really should have followed it up in 2002, that was a balls up of epic proportions.

Good stat about us winning a trophy in the last 6 decades. That must mean we have one coming in the next 4! <party>
 
Spurm said:
I missed the 2008 Carling cup final, i got stranded at Luton station, i'm still not sure what went wrong, drink was involved. Being stranded at Luton station is bad enough at the best of times but even worse when you're missing out on the best day Spurs have had while you've been an "adult".
I remember 1999 fondly, because it was really the first trophy i watched us win (technically i watched 1991 but i was only 10 and more interested in other sports at the time).
Really should have followed it up in 2002, that was a balls up of epic proportions.

Good stat about us winning a trophy in the last 6 decades. That must mean we have one coming in the next 4! <party>
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Getting stranded at a railway station is pretty tricky isn't it, there are usually trains leaving......unless you meant a police station...
 
PowerSpurs said:
Getting stranded at a railway station is pretty tricky isn't it, there are usually trains leaving......unless you meant a police station...
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Basically i was on a long journey back from York or some ridiculous place like that. You know, norf. I should have been back in london in time to watch the match on the tellybox. Train was delayed or something, finally resulting in me getting dumped at Luton station just as extra time started. I remember getting a pretty excited text from my dad when we scored as i stood frantically refreshing my phone on the platform, followed by the welcome news he'd recorded it on his dvd recorder. It wasn't the same though.

The drink was involved the previous night, and if it wasn't for drink i wouldn't have been up norf anyway.
 
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