Two centre-backs and a right-back? Unless I've misunderstood your point, we've got Bassong and Martin, with Turner and R Bennett (and Miquel) as back up in the CB department. I know a lot on here aren't a fan of Rusty at CB, but his partnership with Bassong, in terms of clean sheets and goals conceded, was the best in the Championship I believe? So only if one of R Bennett and Turner leave do we need another CB. Investing in another one, say a very expensive but you g and talented, would be a luxury IMO. At right back it's a little more complicated, with Rusty obviously doubling as back-up to Whits, and then E Bennett having played a few at right back. If E Bennett goes, we need a back-up right winger who can double as a fullback, but otherwise I'm not convinced we're short in that department at all (unless we want to invest in the luxury of a youngster). I've said it before on here (as have others) I honestly see no reason why we shouldn't have the same starting line-up in the first game of next season as the last game of last... Any big spending should be replacing players on the bench with young'uns with potential. Dorrans and Mulumbu (if it comes off) mean we have experienced back-up in every department.
I missed out Turner, who I certainly think will go. If Dorrans and potentially Mulumbu are included in McNally's '6 or 7', then it begins to look more reasonable. I think Brady, if he does come in, would replace Garrido as well as strengthening the left side of midfield. We're then looking at 3 or 4 to go. If Mulumbu comes in then O'Neil is likely to go, so we're down to 2 or 3. Miquel could go out on loan if a new CB comes in, so that leaves 1 or 2 from Lafferty, RvW and possibly Hooper, E.Bennett, and Andreu. Not so drastic then.
I'm not criticising Neil, I never said Andreu was not fit. I was just putting into words what your comments meant. He did not sign Andreu for 1 million quid as a long term thing, just total claptrap. Your certainly going to be alot fitter and sharper playing regularly in Scotland than as occasional sub in England. He bought him with the plan to contribute from the start, he just wasn't good enough or able to.
Mulumbo, another central midfielder to make 9 for 3 positions O'Neill is definitely gone, Andreu and A nother not far behind I expect. I am delighted Neil doesn't appear to like wingers.
I'm working on a nominal 4-5-1 formation, with backup in each position. So 8 defenders, 10 or 11 midfielders, 3 keepers and 3 or 4 strikers. Obviously not everybody fits neatly into those boxes, and Redmond is effectively a free midfielder spot this season. My argument was for Miquel, Bennett and Turner to all leave. I don't believe that any of them staying with us will result in them being genuine top flight defenders, either due to age or game time available. Bennett is the new Ayala I think. That would give us a LB, a centre back, a right back and Martin as out entire defence. A combination of Brady, Toffolo and Whittaker covers the second LB position, but should Martin get injured we'd be missing a centre back, and have no right back cover. Should we prove capable of shifting on the players mentioned, temporarily or permanently, I could see us signing a centre back with PL experience, hopefully the right side of 30, and then a younger centre back from abroad for a small sum. Basically upgrading Turner and gambling on finding someone better than Ryben, to fill a position in the squad which should only be called upon in an emergency.
I also think that's about right DH, but IMO AN's inclination towards players who can play more than one position suggests a more flexible squad structure where Brady, if he comes in, could be a defender as well as a midfielder (or 2). If Turner leaves, that would leave 7 defenders and space for a quality CB to come in. Should Miquel go out on loan, that would leave 6 defenders and space for another quality CB to come in, making 8 defenders in all (including Brady or someone similar and Toffolo who is under 21). I agree that we are looking at a five man midfield, so that means around 10 players in midfield (given that Redmond still counts as under 21). At the moment we have 11, so O'Neil is most likely to leave. Two keepers makes the squad up to 20 (Remi Matthews still counts as under 21). That could allow for all 5 of our present strikers to make up 25, but I suspect at least one will leave and be replaced by either a striker or an AM/Striker, leaving us with a 25 player squad plus Loza and Morris who both count as under 21.
I think defence and CB's in particular are going to be our main issue and would like us to recruit one CB that is of better quality than those we currently have at the club. I really don't see Martin & Bassong cutting it as a premier league CB partnership. Yes they may have done okay as a pairing in the championship in terms of stats, however our midfield was clearly structured to give them a lot of support. Martin for me seems to struggle with postioning which doesn't help particularly as he would seem the natural leader of the 2 to organise the defence. Both of them have moments of madness and not just when under pressure. I'm not sure that it's a coincedence that Ruddy has gone off the boil since Martin has been playing as a regular CB. I think Bassong is good enough on the day for a premiership CB, but Martin for me is not good enough for our first choice CB and I think we would need a better CB than Bassong to play alongside him to get a decent premiership CB pairng. Personally I would play Martin at RB and let him and Whittaker fight it out to start. So it really depends whether Neil sees Martin as a main stay CB next year. If he does then I think we need another RB, CB and LB. If he intends to use Martin as a RB / CB cover then I would say we need 2 x CB's & a LB. I suspect 2 of 3 from Turner Bennett & Miguel will be going.
The thing is canario, and I mean no offence, we all know what your feelings on Rusty are at CB and I strongly disagree with them. So there's simply no way we are going to agree on this. So, for example, you say "they may have done okay as a pairing in the championship in terms of stats", but my view is that being the best in the championship is better than okay. I also disagree that our midefield was structured to give them a lot of support - one holding midfielder is totally standard in modern football. It's where you have two holding midfielders, like under Hughton, where you can see that we were trying to heavily weigh towards protecting the back four. Under Alex Neil I don't think I've once seen us play two holding midfielder roles unless protecting a lead, and even then O'Neil or Tettey have been willing to get forward. And I disagree with you on Martin's positioning - if anything I would say that's his strength. His weakness is height and getting bullied by big powerful forwards. I've already discussed with someone else that I think this weakness is less of an issue in the PL as there are fewer of the big bully forwards. But ignoring disagreements about each player's weaknesses and strengths (and I don't disagree with you that they have moments of madness), but the fact is find me a CB that doesn't have a moment of madness or another weakness and I will show you a player we can't afford. However, that doesn't mean I disagree with this: I would like to see us recruit one CB of better quality, of course, if they are available at the right price! But I suspect they aren't so I think our recruitment in this department should focus on a youngster with natural talent with a view to pushing towards a first team place. And this is also true - it entirely depends how Neil sees it. The only reason we would need another RB and CB is if one of our CBs leaves and E Bennett or another CB goes. Our squad is already nearly full so it's one in one out at this stage IMO. Basically, having seen how tidy Neil has made it at the back, I see no reason to splash out big money on an experienced CB when I think it would be better spent on a winger/attacking midfielder and a striker.
I don't care what the stats say there is no way Bassong / Martin were the best CB pairing in the championship last year, but I accept my view on the topic is different from many on this forum. It may help if we looked at a different way. If we were going to sell Martin (which I'm not suggesting we should do) which premiership teams do you think would put in serious offers for him with a view to him being first choice on their team sheet for a CB position.
So what exactly are you judging them on then? Did you watch every other club's CB's in enough detail to make an effective comparison? Who would you say then were better? I think Rob nailed it pretty much spot on
Rob " focus on a youngster with natural talent ". I am pretty sure R Bennett and I Miquel qualify under that description. So far Bennett has performed well/not so well according to posters views/bias, but of Miquel nothing is known at all. The chances of this being repeated are remote at best. I sincerely hope that if a CB is recruited it is one a cut above our existing incumbents.
I have to say I was surprised when someone said Martin's positioning wasn't good enough. It's probably his strongest attribute and why he was a good right back despite not having a huge amount of pace. His confidence through a tackle (IE going in strong and winning the ball) and his heading against strong strikers are his main issues. But he's usually quick to react if one of his other defenders makes a mistake and often is the one sweeping up behind Bassong. It'd still like to see Bennett given a chance as he clearly has quality. It's just a shame he's been injured at times when it seemed he could finally cement his place in the team eg. being the starting CB with martin against Ipswich and getting injured after less than 2 minutes. I can see Turner leaving and so I think we'll need a new CB in but I don;t think it's worrying an area as a lot of people seem to think. I'd rather we got a high quality RB. Whittaker was great second half of the season, really helped Redmond going forward but I always worry about his defensive abilities and his decision making when under pressure. I'd like to see Toffolo given the back up LB role, especially if Brady comes in as he can cover there too, so we wouldn't be relying solely on Tof if Olsson did get injured.
Agree with this. It's either a really good CB who comes in to challenge for a starting spot or stay as we are. Why bother selling RyBen only to get in someone of comparable age and quality and have them sit on the bench instead? Overall I'd like to see Olsson-Bassong-Rbennett-Martin across the back line as I feel Bennett has the same quality of movement and passing as Martin, is better in the air, if not quite as experienced, plus I always have reservations with Whittaker and feel Martin is just a more solid RB.
I'm not surprised at all, take another look at the goal we conceded against 1p5swich in the play-off semi 2nd leg
That's a much politer version of what I was going to say. Some people will never change their opinion no matter what!
Not saying Russ is a bad player or that he is 'continually out of position', just citing one instance that's all
He should have been stronger to get on that header, sure. However, 1 example does not an argument make. Thinking about it, our defenders haven't actually made that many mistakes over the course of the season. The trouble we had is those mistakes often came in games where we simply couldn't break down the opposition. You could as easily blame the dropped points on Strikers missing golden chances. In fact, other than Bournemouth and Boro, we had the tightest defence in the league this season.
