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moreinjuredthanowen said:
I'm sure its not that bad...

I eman I would like to see us thrash a side but it's like this back in the day the "invincibles" were supposed to be awesome to watch correct?

well if you look back do you remember something more like oh 15 mins or 20 mins of them running over sides then 70mins of them controlling games... they controlled games too but had the rep for great football

If you watch an el classico today the game is utterly ruined by diving and cheating and awful stuff but the thing is in general they have less shots and less chances missed than in england if you ignore the petty nature of it. why? cos they know how to defend properly.

It shocked me to see a europa winner in moreno form a biggish team in spain be so incometant at the art of defending especially inside his own box marking players.

surely there's a base competence and then after that expression is possible.

But the ain is not to enterain tv fans but to win games.
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I think people have different views of what entertaining football is. And I don't means attacking football (most people) vs defensive (Jimmy, Pulis, Houllier and Morurinho) football either. You said "thrash a side" and "controlling games", i don't mean either of those things. By entertaining football, I mean football that's keeps you interested and on the edge of your seat. It could be a 1-0 or 6-5 game, the goals aren't necessarily the excitement, its the chances created or movement of the ball. Its not necessarily that something will happen, it more about the possibility of something good happening.

A team knowing how to defend properly isn't a negative to me either. Parking ten behind the ball to defend at all costs is though. Having five players (plus keeper) in a team that know how to defend whilst letting the remaining five attack is a dying art.

The pre-pass back rule football was a bit before my time. I can remember it but I wasn't a massive lover of watching football back then, I preferred to go out and play football myself. Cheating is something I don't like to see at all although I'm not entirely sure why you brought that up under a discussing about entertaining football vs winning trophies either <laugh>
 
Sir_Red said:
I'd rather watch us grind out a 1 nil win than see us lose in a 5-6 thriller. Winning comes first, entertainment second.
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That's taking it to the extreme though and getting to the point that isn't really relevant anymore. You're not going to find a Liverpool fan that would prefer to lose rather than win are you? The discussion is more about defense vs attack; which do you prefer? Some claim a defensive setup offers a more likely return on silverware. that there is a whole debate on its own.
 
Gerrez said:
I think people have different views of what entertaining football is. And I don't means attacking football (most people) vs defensive (Jimmy, Pulis, Houllier and Morurinho) football either. You said "thrash a side" and "controlling games", i don't mean either of those things. By entertaining football, I mean football that's keeps you interested and on the edge of your seat. It could be a 1-0 or 6-5 game, the goals aren't necessarily the excitement, its the chances created or movement of the ball. Its not necessarily that something will happen, it more about the possibility of something good happening.

A team knowing how to defend properly isn't a negative to me either. Parking ten behind the ball to defend at all costs is though. Having five players (plus keeper) in a team that know how to defend whilst letting the remaining five attack is a dying art.

The pre-pass back rule football was a bit before my time. I can remember it but I wasn't a massive lover of watching football back then, I preferred to go out and play football myself. Cheating is something I don't like to see at all although I'm not entirely sure why you brought that up under a discussing about entertaining football vs winning trophies either <laugh>
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so you'd not like a 3-0 after half hour then 60mins of half paced not really bothered stuff.

I can get that.... a grinding 1-0 dour affair can be awful

a 0-0 can be amazing. if boht sides have chances and keepers save them... a really competitive game can be really good even without goals

by contrast a 1-1 with chelsea just poundng the we don't want the ball mentality... or insert rafa benetiz isn't
 
Gerrez said:
That's taking it to the extreme though and getting to the point that isn't really relevant anymore. You're not going to find a Liverpool fan that would prefer to lose rather than win are you? The discussion is more about defense vs attack; which do you prefer? Some claim a defensive setup offers a more likely return on silverware. that there is a whole debate on its own.
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Well everyone prefers attack! But I would have rather we bored our way to the title last year than come second with memorable attacking displays.
 
Sir_Red said:
Well everyone prefers attack! But I would have rather we bored our way to the title last year than come second with memorable attacking displays.
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I'd have simply liked us to have confidence in ourselves and controlled the chelsea game when the time came and just sit on them take the 0-0 and then delivered the wins.
 
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moreinjuredthanowen said:
so you'd not like a 3-0 after half hour then 60mins of half paced not really bothered stuff.

I can get that.... a grinding 1-0 dour affair can be awful

a 0-0 can be amazing. if boht sides have chances and keepers save them... a really competitive game can be really good even without goals

by contrast a 1-1 with chelsea just poundng the we don't want the ball mentality... or insert rafa benetiz isn't
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I want us to play football that keeps me interested and entertained. That's it.

I don't agree with the sitting on a 3-0 either. If we're 3-0 up, we were obviously doing something right so why change it? Changing it risks changing the way the game is going. I'm not satisfied with 3-0 either, why settle for 3-0 when you could get four, five or six? Only way I'd accept going reserved is if its a tight game with both sides creating chances and there is little time left on the clock, it makes sense to protect a lead in that instance. I guess what I'm basically saying is that I'll never accept my team adopting a park the bus at all costs in every game approach.
 
Gerrez said:
I want us to play football that keeps me interested and entertained. That's it.

I don't agree with the sitting on a 3-0 either. If we're 3-0 up, we were obviously doing something right so why change it? Changing it risks changing the way the game is going. I'm not satisfied with 3-0 either, why settle for 3-0 when you could get four, five or six? Only way I'd accept going reserved is if its a tight game with both sides creating chances and there is little time left on the clock, it makes sense to protect a lead in that instance. I guess what I'm basically saying is that I'll never accept my team adopting a park the bus at all costs in every game approach.
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I agree to a certain level.

I think if you are beating a side that's when you should ease off after 60mins and rest your stars with subs if you want but i've seen us take the gas off before half time.

the old thing is one side couldn't wait for half time and the other wished it didn't come also applies. When LFc did play well I dreaded rafa getting his hands on us and making us more tight and less flowing.

but then... we can't expect a side to go hammer and tongs for 90 mins week in and week out and not just implode either.

I guess thats why cup games are more intense that league games and we expect a rip roaring cup tie but not quite that in league.
 
moreinjuredthanowen said:
I agree to a certain level.

I think if you are beating a side that's when you should ease off after 60mins and rest your stars with subs if you want but i've seen us take the gas off before half time.

the old thing is one side couldn't wait for half time and the other wished it didn't come also applies. When LFc did play well I dreaded rafa getting his hands on us and making us more tight and less flowing.

but then... we can't expect a side to go hammer and tongs for 90 mins week in and week out and not just implode either.

I guess thats why cup games are more intense that league games and we expect a rip roaring cup tie but not quite that in league.
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Rest certain players yes but why tell players to take it easy? Only reasons would be fatigue and risk of injury. Risk of injury is greater if your only putting in a half hearted effort. Back-up players playing thirty minutes shouldn't be getting tired.
 
Gerrez said:
Rest certain players yes but why tell players to take it easy? Only reasons would be fatigue and risk of injury. Risk of injury is greater if your only putting in a half hearted effort. Back-up players playing thirty minutes shouldn't be getting tired.
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true.

I think there should be a general ability to roll subs and keep things going as you shouldn't be hauling the same guy off time and again. eg... benayoun on 67 mins game after game but torres ran into gorund for 90.
 
Sir_Red said:
Well everyone prefers attack! But I would have rather we bored our way to the title last year than come second with memorable attacking displays.
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It should be a matter of contexts surely. And who the opposition was.

There is boring 1-0 win and boring 1-0 win. When you play against a team say like Arsenal away, you defend most of the time and if you come back with a 1-0 win most fans will be happy. However, if you play at home against say Hull, and would you be happy to defend for 90 minutes and sneak a 1-0 draw? And you do that for most of the 38 matches, and even though you get into a title challenge and get into the CL places, I doubt whether the fans will be happy.

One can only take boring albeit a winning football in small doses and whenver it is indicated. Too much of it you may find it gets you sick <ok>
 
carlthejackal said:
It should be a matter of contexts surely. And who the opposition was.

There is boring 1-0 win and boring 1-0 win. When you play against a team say like Arsenal away, you defend most of the time and if you come back with a 1-0 win most fans will be happy. However, if you play at home against say Hull, and would you be happy to defend for 90 minutes and sneak a 1-0 draw? And you do that for most of the 38 matches, and even though you get into a title challenge and get into the CL places, I doubt whether the fans will be happy.

One can only take in bring albeit a winning one in small doses. Too much of it you may find it gets you sick <ok>
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this is also true. A hard fought away day would be defined by the other team creating drama too.

A 1-0 draw is hard to have though :bandit:

I'd say go ask an arsenal fan in 1991 what they thought of boring boring arsenal.... mind you when it dropped off a bit they were quick to get the claws out. wenger has had longer than graham did when not winning. I guess the message will be they fans doe't mind right up unitl you don't win a trophy and then they really do mind.
 
moreinjuredthanowen said:
this is also true. A hard fought away day would be defined by the other team creating drama too.

A 1-0 draw is hard to have though :bandit:

I'd say go ask an arsenal fan in 1991 what they thought of boring boring arsenal.... mind you when it dropped off a bit they were quick to get the claws out. wenger has had longer than graham did when not winning. I guess the message will be they fans doe't mind right up unitl you don't win a trophy and then they really do mind.
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Sure. Winning the title might trump it but whatabout getting into the CL. Play like that for 38 matches and then when in the CL you wont change the system will you? you may or may not get out of the league section.

So why would people pay to watch these games? to watch their own team defending en masse then to sneak a goal. What wil they be supporting and applauding? great defensive display against the mighty Palace or Hull attack? The crowd will stop attending as they might as well watch the hghlights i.e the goals on their mobile or TV.
 
carlthejackal said:
Sure. Winning the title might trump it but whatabout getting into the CL. Play like that for 38 matches and then when in the CL you wont change the system will you? you may or may not get out of the league section.

So why would people pay to watch these games? to watch their own team defending en masse then to sneak a goal. What wil they be supporting and applauding? great defensive display against the mighty Palace or Hull attack? The crowd will stop attending as they might as well watch the hghlights i.e the goals on their mobile or TV.
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You can't play back foot football across an entire season and succeed at the top of the PL.

Even pragmatic managers loosen the reigns when their sides are facing the lesser lights.

It's a myth to suggest that all of Houlliers football was dull and that most of Rodgers has been entertaining.

Football is also a tactical game and managers pit their wits against each other and attempt to cancel the other out. Sides don't set out to turn out borefests.
 
carlthejackal said:
Sure. Winning the title might trump it but whatabout getting into the CL. Play like that for 38 matches and then when in the CL you wont change the system will you? you may or may not get out of the league section.

So why would people pay to watch these games? to watch their own team defending en masse then to sneak a goal. What wil they be supporting and applauding? great defensive display against the mighty Palace or Hull attack? The crowd will stop attending as they might as well watch the hghlights i.e the goals on their mobile or TV.
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they do on a one off basis. if lfc had got a sneaky goal in the bernebau and defended it out we'd all have been delighted

but yes defending v palace or hull is different
 
moreinjuredthanowen said:
this is also true. A hard fought away day would be defined by the other team creating drama too.

A 1-0 draw is hard to have though :bandit:

I'd say go ask an arsenal fan in 1991 what they thought of boring boring arsenal.... mind you when it dropped off a bit they were quick to get the claws out. wenger has had longer than graham did when not winning. I guess the message will be they fans doe't mind right up unitl you don't win a trophy and then they really do mind.
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The fans that moan probably did mind but didn't have to gohoonas to speak out about it whilst the results were going the right way <whistle>
 
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