Joey giving it large on Israel
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there is of course a border with Egypt
are they allowed across or do the Egyptians not want them either
are they allowed across or do the Egyptians not want them either
I thought I would never say this. But I agree with Joey for once.
Commonsense should prevail and I condemn Yossi's stmt 'Things never change'!
Things should change for better all the effing time!!
Hamas & Israel should stop killing children and innocent people ffs!!
Commonsense should prevail and I condemn Yossi's stmt 'Things never change'!
Things should change for better all the effing time!!
Hamas & Israel should stop killing children and innocent people ffs!!
I must respond to some of the awful inaccuracies that some, particularly Swords, have posted during this debate. There are many people who clearly do not have a grasp of the historical facts, and who have swallowed propaganda hook line and sinker. Please check everything that follows on Google or elsewhere.
1. Jews have lived in Palestine continuously since the time of Jesus and before.
2.Most of the Palestinian Arabs emigrated to Israel from surrounding Arab countries in the last 100 years because the Jews were providing employment and "making the desert bloom" For Swords to refer to "...foreigners ....from all four corners of the World (to) forcibly evict the people who have lived there for the intervening 2 or 3 millennia" is just plain nonsense. .
3. There has never been an independent Palestinian State on any part of the land. The area was controlled by Turkey until 1917 and by the British until 1948
4. In November 1947 the UN decided by a substantial majority to solve the problem by creating 2 states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted this, the Arabs didn't and attacked the new Jewish State of Israel with the announced intention of "throwing the Jews into the sea". They did not succeed, but,as a result of the war that the Arabs started, there were areas that were previously Jewish(such as the Jewish quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem) that were occupied by Arabs(in this case Jordan) and there were areas that were previously occupied by Arabs that became part of the State of Israel.
5. There are 1.5 million Palestinian Arabs now living in Israel with full rights, including voting rights, just like any other Israeli. There are Arab parties in the Israeli Parliament, and there are many Arabs who hold high positions, including High Court Judges. Swords reference to "apartheid" is totally abhorrent and inaccurate. Just ask any of my Arab neighbours who live close to me and are much happier living in the democratic State of Israel than any of the surrounding dictatorships!
6. Between 1948 and 1967, due to the war that they started, the Arabs(Jordan) occupied the West Bank(including East Jerusalem and the Old City) and the Gaza Strip(Egypt). At no time during that 19 year period was there any move by the Arab World to create a Palestinian State on any part of the land of the West Bank or Gaza. Why? Because their sated aim was to destroy the State of Israel.
7. After the 6 Day War of June 1967, Israel offered to return every part of the territory captured in that war, in exchange for peace.
8. At the Khartoum Conference of September 1967, the Arab world turned down that offer with the famous "3 no's" "NO peace with Israel, NO recognition of Israel, NO negotiations with Israel"
9. In subsequent years, Israel has offered to withdraw from disputed territories in exchange for peace and has been rebuffed every time.
The vast majority of Israelis(according to opinion polls) want a two state solution, but, unfortunately, the Arab World only wants one state, and that would be a state without Jews!
I leave you all to come to your own conclusions.
1. Jews have lived in Palestine continuously since the time of Jesus and before.
2.Most of the Palestinian Arabs emigrated to Israel from surrounding Arab countries in the last 100 years because the Jews were providing employment and "making the desert bloom" For Swords to refer to "...foreigners ....from all four corners of the World (to) forcibly evict the people who have lived there for the intervening 2 or 3 millennia" is just plain nonsense. .
3. There has never been an independent Palestinian State on any part of the land. The area was controlled by Turkey until 1917 and by the British until 1948
4. In November 1947 the UN decided by a substantial majority to solve the problem by creating 2 states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted this, the Arabs didn't and attacked the new Jewish State of Israel with the announced intention of "throwing the Jews into the sea". They did not succeed, but,as a result of the war that the Arabs started, there were areas that were previously Jewish(such as the Jewish quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem) that were occupied by Arabs(in this case Jordan) and there were areas that were previously occupied by Arabs that became part of the State of Israel.
5. There are 1.5 million Palestinian Arabs now living in Israel with full rights, including voting rights, just like any other Israeli. There are Arab parties in the Israeli Parliament, and there are many Arabs who hold high positions, including High Court Judges. Swords reference to "apartheid" is totally abhorrent and inaccurate. Just ask any of my Arab neighbours who live close to me and are much happier living in the democratic State of Israel than any of the surrounding dictatorships!
6. Between 1948 and 1967, due to the war that they started, the Arabs(Jordan) occupied the West Bank(including East Jerusalem and the Old City) and the Gaza Strip(Egypt). At no time during that 19 year period was there any move by the Arab World to create a Palestinian State on any part of the land of the West Bank or Gaza. Why? Because their sated aim was to destroy the State of Israel.
7. After the 6 Day War of June 1967, Israel offered to return every part of the territory captured in that war, in exchange for peace.
8. At the Khartoum Conference of September 1967, the Arab world turned down that offer with the famous "3 no's" "NO peace with Israel, NO recognition of Israel, NO negotiations with Israel"
9. In subsequent years, Israel has offered to withdraw from disputed territories in exchange for peace and has been rebuffed every time.
The vast majority of Israelis(according to opinion polls) want a two state solution, but, unfortunately, the Arab World only wants one state, and that would be a state without Jews!
I leave you all to come to your own conclusions.
They can't mate, the border with Egypt is closed. Egypt classes Hamas as a terrorist organisation, as does Jordan.
Thanks Israel, thats what I meant by showing the inaccuracies in people's positions. Though I would note that at one stage in the early 19th century there were as little as 10,000 Jews living in Palestine (as it then was, part of the Ottoman Empire). And you have just demonstrated once again why we have arrived at such an impasse. The Israeli constitution has always been secular and highly democratic, on paper a one state solution would seem possible, though I do wonder what would happen if this was accepted, Gaza and the West Bank were incorporated into Israel, and the returning Palestinian refugees from Lebanon, Jordan and around the world created a Palestinian majority.
There is a certain irony in Barton having kicked off the debate on here, given that I seem to remember that you were a proven ITK on him when he joined......
Thanks to Nuts for his contributions, you don't post enough mate. I know from chatting to him in the pub (between football talk) that his experience is direct, and his conclusions are drawn from a neutral standpoint.
I agree with Nines, these threads become circular and nasty after a bit as entrenched positions descend into abuse, it makes sense to close after a time.
The only conclusion I have drawn is that progress seems impossible while Hamas is in control of Gaza. To get rid of them we have to get rid of the conditions which created them, and Israel and the international community need to understand and act on this, though I still have no idea what they should do. All I'm sure of is that every bomb dropped on Gaza strengthens these religious nutters.
Finally I was surprised to see the image below in the advertising space under posts on this site this morning (removed when you log in). The PR machine is at full throttle even targetting football forums.
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Israel.............first of all, stay safe mate.
Thanks for your informative posts that have given a little balance to what I see on here as some one-eyed, anti Israel comment from SOME.
Being anti Israel and maybe anti Jew seems to be a political mind set for some (not necessarily anyone on here).
There is fault on both sides and it is sad that so many innocent people have lost their lives and continue to do so. However, if I was constantly running to air raid shelters to escape falling rockets, I may not want to roll over either!
IsraelRanger
I wore a blue beret over there for two years and worked in Jerusalem, Tiberius, occupied Golan, Beirut, South Lebanon, Damascus, occupied Golan and Amman. I made great friends on both sides of the conflict.
I don't want it to seem that I'm entrenched on either side but a lot of what you say is very very disputable. Israel won't give back the land they occupied since 1967. Syria has asked for the Golan back several times officially through the UN etc but Israel flatly refuses. Why? It's nothing to do with peace, as through both of the Assad's regimes, there was long periods of peace with Israel with not a single bullet exchanged. The Golan is strategically important to Israel, with the mountains providing an over watch into Lebanon and Israel also gets between 8-12% of its water supply from here. As you and I both know, you're running out of water very slowly and your land is becoming exhausted from constant cultivation. Quite simply, your country refuses to give back this land. It's the same story with Lebanon. Hezbollah have publicly stated that the main reason for their existence is to get back all the occupied Lebanese land, for the people of Lebanon. We all know this is untrue but Israel stupidly continues to occupy the Lebanese parts of the Golan (Sheba farms) and Ghajjar. Giving these back to Lebanon, would force Hezbollah's hand and win the hearts of many moderate Lebanese people. But still you refuse to give them back THEIR land.
I stated earlier that both parties to the conflict have a rightful claim to the land and records held in Jerusalem house testify to this. Nobody disputes this but one half living in the majority of the country and the other half living behind a technical fence in squalor, will never resolve this. Israel is now building a new technical fence between itself and Egypt at enormous expense. Soon you will be even more isolated from all your neighbours. Israeli negotiators have proved to be incredibly clever around the negotiation table. They talk peace but Israel will never accept a two state solution. Many of the Israelis I worked with told me that.
I wore a blue beret over there for two years and worked in Jerusalem, Tiberius, occupied Golan, Beirut, South Lebanon, Damascus, occupied Golan and Amman. I made great friends on both sides of the conflict.
I don't want it to seem that I'm entrenched on either side but a lot of what you say is very very disputable. Israel won't give back the land they occupied since 1967. Syria has asked for the Golan back several times officially through the UN etc but Israel flatly refuses. Why? It's nothing to do with peace, as through both of the Assad's regimes, there was long periods of peace with Israel with not a single bullet exchanged. The Golan is strategically important to Israel, with the mountains providing an over watch into Lebanon and Israel also gets between 8-12% of its water supply from here. As you and I both know, you're running out of water very slowly and your land is becoming exhausted from constant cultivation. Quite simply, your country refuses to give back this land. It's the same story with Lebanon. Hezbollah have publicly stated that the main reason for their existence is to get back all the occupied Lebanese land, for the people of Lebanon. We all know this is untrue but Israel stupidly continues to occupy the Lebanese parts of the Golan (Sheba farms) and Ghajjar. Giving these back to Lebanon, would force Hezbollah's hand and win the hearts of many moderate Lebanese people. But still you refuse to give them back THEIR land.
I stated earlier that both parties to the conflict have a rightful claim to the land and records held in Jerusalem house testify to this. Nobody disputes this but one half living in the majority of the country and the other half living behind a technical fence in squalor, will never resolve this. Israel is now building a new technical fence between itself and Egypt at enormous expense. Soon you will be even more isolated from all your neighbours. Israeli negotiators have proved to be incredibly clever around the negotiation table. They talk peace but Israel will never accept a two state solution. Many of the Israelis I worked with told me that.
The BBC has itself admitted to being institutionally left wing mate.
(But I think we've had this debate before).
Hope you're well mate.
Thanks for the balance and insight that you're putting into this. I think I've learned more about this struggle from this thread than anywhere else. I just find it hard to sort through the bias and get to the facts. Thanks again.
The BBC has itself admitted to being institutionally left wing mate.
(But I think we've had this debate before).
I think it's getting this one right though - the pro Palestinians say it's being biased to israel and the Israelis say it's biased to Palestine. A job well done i'd say!
Great post Nuts.
You wonder why hamas are lobbing rockets into Israel? Until it is given back, Israel will have zero respect in the international community.
Israel, i have deliberately not posted on here because i do not know or understand the topic and I dont want to throw stupid comments in when i dont know the facts
BUT
What i can say with some conviction is that i hope you and everyone you know stays safe throughout this situation.
I hope you have suffered no loss but most of all, i hope another fellow member of this board is safe.
good luck mate, to you and yours
Unfortunately it's not that simple either Fingi. Hamas are a ruthless organisation.
Gaza has been under complete blockade now for seven years, by land and sea. Their people are suffering greatly. Hamas though, have shot their own people in the foot but using normal routine deliveries if food, water and medicine to transport rockets, explosive, weapons and ammunition. Israel can't just sit back and allow Hamas to arm itself to the teeth. Both sides have shown themselves incapable of respecting the other. The problem however is that the people in Gaza are slowly dying anyway. What have they to lose? Continue to die slowly or stand and fight.
The propaganda on both sides is unbelievable and you really have to be a neutral to realise how entrenched even relatively moderate people have become.
At least Hamas have never changed their stance, Hezbollah on the other hand are driven by Iranian and Syrian ideology and don't represent the majority of the Lebanese people who genuinely do want peace.
Israelis foreign, diplomatic and military stance will always seem excessive to us Europeans as they know that one lost war will result in the loss of their land, country and very identity. Think about it, would you then behave in any other way? I doubt it, you'd fight tooth and nail for every inch which is exactly what the Israelis are doing. There people also have the right to not live in fear every day.
I'm not going through all your nonsense Israel but I'll go at the first 3 or 4.
(1) I've already said that. They've lived peaceably with their neighbours there for Centuries until the evictions began. What's that got to do with anything?
(2) Ah so the the civilised Jews came along and the savages that were there should be thankful? I've heard that supremacist sh*te propagated about settlers closer to home but that's another subject.
(3) Whoever said there was? Its totally immaterial. It was the people's Country/homeland for Centuries - whatever name it had - and they were kicked out by settlers arriving from every part of the World. You cannot duck, dodge or disguise that fact no matter what other spurious "facts" you come up with.
(4) They had no right to do that. No right whatsoever. Of course they attacked the new State, it was created in their homeland, where they lived FFS! I'd have done the very same thing. If a people, armed with a military, came from somewhere else to my Country and attempted to set up a new state and kick me and my family out, the first thing I would do is fight. No talking, no nothing. I'd fight and I'd try to kill. The Jews were massacred by Christians in Europe yet in response, they persecute Arabs in Palestine! Its hideously contorted logic.
That's as far as I read in your post mate. Keep safe
(1) I've already said that. They've lived peaceably with their neighbours there for Centuries until the evictions began. What's that got to do with anything?
(2) Ah so the the civilised Jews came along and the savages that were there should be thankful? I've heard that supremacist sh*te propagated about settlers closer to home but that's another subject.
(3) Whoever said there was? Its totally immaterial. It was the people's Country/homeland for Centuries - whatever name it had - and they were kicked out by settlers arriving from every part of the World. You cannot duck, dodge or disguise that fact no matter what other spurious "facts" you come up with.
(4) They had no right to do that. No right whatsoever. Of course they attacked the new State, it was created in their homeland, where they lived FFS! I'd have done the very same thing. If a people, armed with a military, came from somewhere else to my Country and attempted to set up a new state and kick me and my family out, the first thing I would do is fight. No talking, no nothing. I'd fight and I'd try to kill. The Jews were massacred by Christians in Europe yet in response, they persecute Arabs in Palestine! Its hideously contorted logic.
That's as far as I read in your post mate. Keep safe
Finglas says "You wonder why hamas are lobbing rockets into Israel? Until it is given back, Israel will have zero respect in the international community"
Until what is given back? Israel left Gaza in 2005 and, as a result, instead of creating a decent home for the population with the billions in aid they received, Hamas has kept them in poverty and fired rockets on almost a daily basis into Israel and used the money on arms and for tunnel building.
Please don't yet the facts get in the way of your prejudice, Finglas!
Until what is given back? Israel left Gaza in 2005 and, as a result, instead of creating a decent home for the population with the billions in aid they received, Hamas has kept them in poverty and fired rockets on almost a daily basis into Israel and used the money on arms and for tunnel building.
Please don't yet the facts get in the way of your prejudice, Finglas!
The BBC has itself admitted to being institutionally left wing mate.
(But I think we've had this debate before).
I must have missed that. The recently departed BBC chairman was a former Conservative cabinet minister, wasn't he?
Anyway, as you say we've done this before and there are more important issues being discussed here.
Mate, dont get drawn in.
We here only know what we see on the Tv etc. You live there.
Excuse our lack of knowledge but also dont get wound up at other posters who can only comment based on the information we receive.
Im sure both side have done wrong! We only get news from certain sources.
Stay safe bruv
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