UK Break-up

[Raphael]

There is an interesting debate going on in the Nest about Scottish independence. I know a lot of people dislike political debate especially when it clogs up the Nest so I thought I would start this as it should run till September's vote.

I was going to call this thread Scottish independence but it is really a vote for the UK as such to cease to exist.

Disagree with you there Harry - what many don't seem to realise is that the Scots are not being asked to vote to end the UK, they are being asked if they want to leave the UK. If they vote Yes and leave - the UK will still remain, albeit one member country less.

There are only two Kingdoms in the UK - England and Scotland. Neither Wales nor Northern Ireland have ever been Kingdoms in their own right so by definition if one Kingdom leaves a "United" Kingdom then what it leaves behind cannot be anything other than a solitary Kingdom.

The Scots have all along tried to pretend that only they matter - nobody else gets to vote because we are not affected. This is untrue. The Scots are beiong asked to vote on something which fundamentally affects all the others within the UK. Now I am quite happy to accept that a proud and once separately independent country such as Scotland should have the right to choose to become independent once more. They ought however to be honest and recognise the effect they have on others.
.

 

[Jsybarry]

Looking from a purely Jersey point of view, if the vote in September is yes, I hope it makes Brussels realise that the Crown dependencies of the Channel Islands and Isle of Man are NOT part of the EU, although I'm not sure it will.

 

[Raphael]

I doubt that the EU will realise that - you are "in" the EU de-facto as is Switzerland - did you see the recent vote there from people who are fed up with being forced to comply with EU policies - a club they are not a member of

 

[Raphael]

As to them having "our pound" - you forget that it is just as much Scotland's pound as it is other UK members' - it is a UK asset, not England's, and Scotland does actually own a percentage of those assets. It's Westminster that want to have their cake and eat it, not Scotland - they are telling the Scots that they can't have their share of the assets but at the same time telling them that they have to take on their share of the debts. If those aren't the actions of a bully, then what is? Just as an aside re the currency, there is actually nothing to stop Scotland continuing with Sterling anyway - it being a currency zone currently comprised of the UK, Ascension and Tristan de Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, and the British Indian Ocean Territory. The Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey are in formal currency union with the UK, and are 'Crown Dependencies'. Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, and St. Helena use a currency board to peg their pound to the UK pound - and other unofficial users include Uganda, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Sierra Leone, Tanzania, Rwanda, Malawi, Botswana, and Mirpur in Kashmir Pakistan. I'd say that if Zimbabwe and Sierra Leone can use the pound, there's no reason why an independent Scotland can't.
.

Also lifted from the Nest debate.

The Pound started life as English. The Scots adopted a Pound of their own but messed it up so badly that eventually they pegged it to the English Pound at a rate of 12 Scots Pounds to One English.

Of course they can call a currency they use whatever they like - there are Egyptian Pounds etc that have no link to Sterllng. However that misses the point. If the Sots want to use "our" Pound then the Bank of England will control it. The Bank will set interest rates and will have an obligation to do so in the best interest of what would remain of the old UK. Whether that benefitted Scotland or not would be pure chance. Very similar to the early 1990's when we tried to peg the Pound to European currencies. If Scotland's economy diverged significantly from that of the rest of the sterling zone and Scotland could not control its own interest rates then it would be in trouble.

Small economies like the Channel Islands etc put up with the fct of not having control as they are not ever likely to be the target of currency speculators. Would Scotland want to take that risk?

 

[Bolton's Boots]

The Pound started life as English. The Scots adopted a Pound of their own but messed it up so badly that eventually they pegged it to the English Pound at a rate of 12 Scots Pounds to One English.

I had intended to resist entering the debate further - but would be interested in an elaboration of the above, ie when you think the pound actually started life and when you think the Scots adopted it, then when and how they "messed it up so badly".

Quite simply because what you say is somewhat misleading.

 

[aberdeenhornet]

http://romanceoforthodoxy.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/map-of-saxon-england-in-the-8th-century-1956.jpg
An interesting map, maybe our Scottish friends will not mind the total reversion to the Saxon boundaries, losing even more of the North Sea coast to "England", additionally Shetland and Orkney must have independence of course as they indeed are separate islands with more historical ties to Denmark and Norway than mainland Scotland. That will leave the jocks with oh so much of that oil they crave, a declining resource as well i know being involved in the industry for the past quarter of a century and one which requires massive investment an independent Scotland is not capable of making, indeed even the UK couldn't do it, the resources on the Norwegian shelf are unique in that they are massive and relatively easy to tie in whereas what we are chasing is the dregs of the North Sea at a high lifting cost,add in some political uncertainty and a desire for the nation to have the revenue (tax to the hilt) and you will say hi to a very steep decline in revenue if the Scots control, we're only having a mini boom now due to the loosening of tax on exploitation something that clearly is not on the SNP agenda as they see oil as a cash cow.

 

[HaslemereKev]

I won't lie, I'm not too up on the whole issue...

If Scotland does gain independance, will they look to join the EU as a seperate (and new) member state? If so, do all new members have to adopt the Euro? I don't know if this is true (probably just read it somewhere) but could this influence the voting decision?

Personally I would prefer if Scotland stay within the UK... but can see it getting rather petty from both sides if they are to leave!

 

[Raphael]

I had intended to resist entering the debate further - but would be interested in an elaboration of the above, ie when you think the pound actually started life and when you think the Scots adopted it, then when and how they "messed it up so badly".

Quite simply because what you say is somewhat misleading.

I would not like to pretend to be any kind of expert on this but as I understand it England used the Pound from Roman or Anglo Saxon times. When James VI of Scotland took over England I think Scotland adopted the pound and then when the Act of Union (1707?) rescued the Scottish economy from I think it was some sort of speculating a condition was to "unite" the currencies.

These are old memories and I would have to check how accurate the facts are. Someone on here will have a far better knowledge of these things than I do but that is my tuppenyworth.

In what respects have I been misleading BB?

 

[Raphael]

I won't lie, I'm not too up on the whole issue...

If Scotland does gain independance, will they look to join the EU as a seperate (and new) member state? If so, do all new members have to adopt the Euro? I don't know if this is true (probably just read it somewhere) but could this influence the voting decision?

Personally I would prefer if Scotland stay within the UK... but can see it getting rather petty from both sides if they are to leave!

All new member states in the EU are obliged to adopt the Euro.

 

[aberdeenhornet]

But Alex Salmond is so "Special" he can do what he wants....

 

[Raphael]

Thinking about it the pound must go back to Roman days as the old coinage was LSD; pounds shillings and pence and that was Libra (Latin for Pound) Solidae and Denarius - or something close to that

 

[wear_yellow]

I won't lie, I'm not too up on the whole issue...

If Scotland does gain independance, will they look to join the EU as a seperate (and new) member state? If so, do all new members have to adopt the Euro? I don't know if this is true (probably just read it somewhere) but could this influence the voting decision?

Personally I would prefer if Scotland stay within the UK... but can see it getting rather petty from both sides if they are to leave!

On the Andrew Marr show yesterday the Head of the EU Commission stated that if Scotland broke away from the UK they would have to apply to join the EU as a separate nation. It seems there is a debate to be had if other countries may block that application, but you certainly raise a good parallel question regarding the currency question - my understanding also is that any country now entering the EU would have to move to the Euro as part of that application. I am sure there are some differences of opinion on this subject...but it would be nice to see the SNP debating it instead of accusing the person raising the question of being a bully in the pay of the No Campaign.

 

[Bolton's Boots]

I would not like to pretend to be any kind of expert on this but as I understand it England used the Pound from Roman or Anglo Saxon times. When James VI of Scotland took over England I think Scotland adopted the pound and then when the Act of Union (1707?) rescued the Scottish economy from I think it was some sort of speculating a condition was to "unite" the currencies.

These are old memories and I would have to check how accurate the facts are. Someone on here will have a far better knowledge of these things than I do but that is my tuppenyworth.

In what respects have I been misleading BB?

The pound actually pre-dates 'England', originating during the Mercian kingdom in Offa's time - probably invented to pay for his Dyke. The Scots pound was introduced by David I, about 350 years later, and also pre-dates England. The Act of Union in 1707 did indeed see the Scots adopt Sterling in favour of their own pound, but it was most certainly not to rescue the Scottish economy, which at the time was actually growing. Then, as now, corruption in politics was rife - and then as now the Scottish vote regarding the Union was split. Many of the nobles on the 'no' side had lost money on the infamous Darien Expedition - and it was recompense for this by the English, made directly to those nobles, that bought their vote. The English were desperate for the Union as at that point they were at war with France - allies of Scotland - and wanted to protect their northern borders. Suspicion surrounds that war with France too - the war of Spanish Succession in which England sided with the Spaniards. A Spanish siege was the deciding factor in the Scots nobles abandoning the Darien Expedition, in no small way causing their losses....

All new member states in the EU are obliged to adopt the Euro.

Maybe, maybe not. The SNP viewpoint that it doesn't have to is based on the fact that to adopt the euro a country needs its currency to be committed to the Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) for two years. So at the moment, they can't adopt the euro and neither can they be forced to. The proof of the pudding will be revealed if/when the negotiations commence I suppose.

 

[hockdude]

It bugs me that nobody is asking the opinion of anyone else. Scotland get a vote but apparently Cameron speaks for the rest of us. Personally I am happy for Scotland to stay or go, but if they choose to go they need to do it properly.

So far everything suggests they want independence with all current benefits in tow. Why should the remaining UK use Scotland for any business or trade contracts just because they are currently in place? I see no reason why we should threaten our own economy by allowing another country to use it for no obvious benefit to us, and if they have a stake in it as I have seen mentioned I suspect they will have no problem taking their share of the national debt as well. So far I've seen no reasoned and coherent arguement regarding the positives of the move from north of the border only complaints of bullying because for once Westminster isn't caving in and pandering to their every need.

 

[Raphael]

The pound actually pre-dates 'England', originating during the Mercian kingdom in Offa's time - probably invented to pay for his Dyke. The Scots pound was introduced by David I, about 350 years later, and also pre-dates England. The Act of Union in 1707 did indeed see the Scots adopt Sterling in favour of their own pound, but it was most certainly not to rescue the Scottish economy, which at the time was actually growing. Then, as now, corruption in politics was rife - and then as now the Scottish vote regarding the Union was split. Many of the nobles on the 'no' side had lost money on the infamous Darien Expedition - and it was recompense for this by the English, made directly to those nobles, that bought their vote. The English were desperate for the Union as at that point they were at war with France - allies of Scotland - and wanted to protect their northern borders. Suspicion surrounds that war with France too - the war of Spanish Succession in which England sided with the Spaniards. A Spanish siege was the deciding factor in the Scots nobles abandoning the Darien Expedition, in no small way causing their losses....



Maybe, maybe not. The SNP viewpoint that it doesn't have to is based on the fact that to adopt the euro a country needs its currency to be committed to the Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) for two years. So at the moment, they can't adopt the euro and neither can they be forced to. The proof of the pudding will be revealed if/when the negotiations commence I suppose.

So England and Scotland both had a form of "Pound" - but the Scots changed theirs to adopt the English Pound Sterling. Nothing to stop them reverting to the Punt - like the Irish did - but not linked to the English currency unless they want England to set their interest rates - and why would they?

I am almost certain that the Euro is a mandatory currency for ALL new entrants to the EU. Scotland if accepted into the EU may have a transition period but there is no reason to believe the EU would create a precedent of allowing a new entrant to NOT join the Euro. The SNP are bound to try to blur the facts but this is not really credible. You say they cannot be forced to adopt it - but if it is a pre-requisite for membership then it is not another supposed case of the poor little Scots being bullied by the nasty big powers of the EU but another simple fact - join the EU and have the Euro or choose not to join. If you join a club you play by its rules. The UK only is an exception as the Euro came after the EU

 

[Bolton's Boots]

I am almost certain that the Euro is a mandatory currency for ALL new entrants to the EU.

And that is one of the issues that are currently unclear. There are opinions aplenty that say Scotland are not 'new to the EU' - the 5.5 million citizens are already EU citizens. I don't know and I suspect that others don't either, preferring merely to voice what they are prepared to believe. Again, all will only be revealed when/if it comes to the crunch. The only thing that is clear is that Westminster are mistaken by pushing their line on currency as an important factor - a weekend poll up here on which factors were important to the public rated only a 2% response for currency. That suggests that very few are even listening to him.

 

[Raphael]

I tend to agree with the importance aspect if not the rest. The UK is a member of the EU - Scottish people are within the EU as members of the UK. If they quit the UK they quit the country that HAs membership. Sorry but this I think is a deliberate obfuscation by Alex Salmond. Two countries cannot replace one as members. As a newly independent nation Scotland would not be a member of the EU - Salmond and everybody else knows that in their hearts.

Independence in my humble opinion should not be about economics. If Scots really believe that being independent is more important than being part of the UK they should vote for independence - even if it did not benefit them economically. You should not get married or divorced for purely monetary reasons and the same passion ought to apply.

Personally I hope Scots vote to remain in the UK - if they do I will be pleased.
If though they vote to leave the UK I will also be pleased as I would not want them in the UK against their will

I believe - no facts to back me up - that most English people like the Scots. I also believe that an awful lot of Sots hate the English. The English have created and ruled the largest Empire the world has ever known - yes in the name of Britain but we get most of the blame when it is doled out. How many Irish blame the Scots for their troubles etc. The English have a historic reputation for arrogance - maybe well deserved. We are not much liked around the world I suspect. Shame that but there you go. I also suspect that most English people would prefer Scotland NOT to vote for independence but to stay together - but equally I doubt that on a scale of 1 to 100 they rate it much higher than 20. If the Scots don't like us - we don't care.

Emotional statements - of course - but should this debate not be emotional rather than how much more (or less) money does a Scot (rather than other UK citizens) get in tax credits or whatever?

 

[aberdeenhornet]

The fact is that it was not the English or British that raped the world but a small group of families namely the aristocracy. The English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Indian populations all suffered the same under the aristocracy. I actually like the Scots and they behind the facade and banter seem to like me. I do however have absolutely no time whatsover for those who want independence under some false belief that it would make them better. We are one very successful nation and the change to independent smaller nations would not bring benefit to me or my neighbors here in Scotland.

 

[Bloother]

And that is one of the issues that are currently unclear...Again, all will only be revealed when/if it comes to the crunch.

Says it all. Have a vote but no one actually knows how it will all end, least of all Salmond and the SNP

 

[Bolton's Boots]

Says it all. Have a vote but no one actually knows how it will all end, least of all Salmond and the SNP

I can only re-iterate - 2010. Did anyone know, or even think, that what happened after the vote was about to happen? Personally I doubt it, but even if there were those who did, I suspect that they'd be too ashamed to admit to it now.