What Mcnally said

[canarie-chippy]

Open your eyes Munky's at look at our league position !!!
Look at the goals scored column as well and then come up with another ridiculous fact to white wash over another glaring issue.
But I forgot all is well at CR and we are going to stay up regardless !
Come Sunday week at 5.45 we could well be bottom three, there just aren't enough winnable games left for us, that's if we could start bloody winning !!

 

[Walsh.i.am]

I really fail to see how a (fairly substantial) section of our fanbase is still working along he lines of everything in the garden being rosy, when it clearly is anything but.

We've played 26 games and have a negative goal difference of 20 - that's tantamount to saying "here you go, have a goal start" before the match commences

Add to that the fact that we repeatedly fail to score goals of our own, which would of course help to offset this new-found generosity and it all points towards a horrendous end to the season.
Most heartbreaking of all, it undoes all the good work achieved by Lambert followed by Hughton over the previous four / five years. And the board sit idly by, watching as all that afore mentioned good work is systematically destroyed in front of them

 

[Fenland Canary]

I really fail to see how a (fairly substantial) section of our fanbase is still working along he lines of everything in the garden being rosy, when it clearly is anything but.

We've played 26 games and have a negative goal difference of 20 - that's tantamount to saying "here you go, have a goal start" before the match commences

Add to that the fact that we repeatedly fail to score goals of our own, which would of course help to offset this new-found generosity and it all points towards a horrendous end to the season.
Most heartbreaking of all, it undoes all the good work achieved by Lambert followed by Hughton over the previous four / five years. And the board sit idly by, watching as all that afore mentioned good work is systematically destroyed in front of them

I'm a CH outer (but not until the summer), what would you have the board do though?, sack CH?, do you think a new manager at this stage would be wise?

 

[Tony_Munky_Canary]

Open your eyes Munky's at look at our league position !!!
Look at the goals scored column as well and then come up with another ridiculous fact to white wash over another glaring issue.
But I forgot all is well at CR and we are going to stay up regardless !
Come Sunday week at 5.45 we could well be bottom three, there just aren't enough winnable games left for us, that's if we could start bloody winning !!

The 'goals for' column certainly is a concern, of that there is no question - but the point you raised to which I replied was about "not being able to set us up defensively" wasn't it?

I have looked at our league position, fifth from bottom - when was the last time anyone was relegated for finishing fifth from bottom? And if you would care to consider that we were fourth favourites to go down with virtually all bookies pre-season then surely means we are currently exceeding expectations, no?

And when has anybody said "all is well"?? I certainly haven't and I recognise there is definitely room for improvement, but I also know that things could be an awful lot worse than they are

 

[Tony_Munky_Canary]

I really fail to see how a (fairly substantial) section of our fanbase is still working along he lines of everything in the garden being rosy, when it clearly is anything but.

We've played 26 games and have a negative goal difference of 20 - that's tantamount to saying "here you go, have a goal start" before the match commences

Add to that the fact that we repeatedly fail to score goals of our own, which would of course help to offset this new-found generosity and it all points towards a horrendous end to the season.
Most heartbreaking of all, it undoes all the good work achieved by Lambert followed by Hughton over the previous four / five years. And the board sit idly by, watching as all that afore mentioned good work is systematically destroyed in front of them

No it doesn't!!!! At the risk of repeating myself, we have kept a clean sheet better than every third game and average less than a goal a game if you exclude the top four so (once again) you are spouting negative, propaganda to suit your agenda.

Seriously, are you actually a Norwich fan or are you a WUM? Good work if it is the latter because you're certainly winding me up!!

 

[Canary Rob]

I really fail to see how a (fairly substantial) section of our fanbase is still working along he lines of everything in the garden being rosy, when it clearly is anything but.

We've played 26 games and have a negative goal difference of 20 - that's tantamount to saying "here you go, have a goal start" before the match commences

Add to that the fact that we repeatedly fail to score goals of our own, which would of course help to offset this new-found generosity and it all points towards a horrendous end to the season.
Most heartbreaking of all, it undoes all the good work achieved by Lambert followed by Hughton over the previous four / five years. And the board sit idly by, watching as all that afore mentioned good work is systematically destroyed in front of them

I think for the most part it's a case of talking at cross-purposes, rather than them actually saying everything is rosey.

For example, I think Munky's arguments for our defence being solid is perfectly valid (the stats are there to see), but then equally it is certainly the case that we have given stupid goals away throughout the season, so although chippy and munky feel like they're banging their heads against a wall, actually they are talking about different things.

I don't believe anyone has actually said everything is rosey either, they mostly seem to be saying "everything is rosey, in comparison to where we have been". I think there's something to be said for that argument - we need perspective, but equally the reason I felt Hughton should have been sacked in early December was because it was clear, to my mind, that his long term prospects here are not really viable if we are to be taken to the next level (being a permanent fixture in the premier league).

I think if we all just took a step back we would agree:
(1) we are not in the position we would like to be in the league
(2) we are not scoring as many as we would like to
(3) we are conceding too many silly, individual error, goals
(4) we have a squad capable of staying in the premier league
(5) being relegated, on the basis of (4) would be a real mistake
(6) our remaining matches mean it is all very much in the balance
(7) Hughton, and/or the board, need to act fast if we are to ensure relegation doesn't happen
(8) [performances, if not results, optically have improved these last few games, which is at least a small consolation]

If we agree on all that, then realistically we're just ti-for-tatting on the finer minutiae.

I put 8 in square brackets because I'm not certain that everyone does agree on that one, but I certainly think it's the case. Would I like to be a supporter staying up playing like Allardyce?

 

[Resurgam]

]Take out the goals against the top four [/B](who have been scoring for fun against all and sundry, even each other!) and we average less than a goal conceded a game, which is pretty good isn't it? Nine clean sheets (more than one every three games) as well. And many of the goals conceded have been due to individual errors which the manager can do nothing about apart from maybe bench the culprit for a game or two, which he has done this season when players have been out of form, Bassong, Tina and Rusty have all been left out after poor performances despite people trying to say that he "picks the same team every week".

Open your bloody eyes and look at ALL the facts man!!

No it doesn't!!!! At the risk of repeating myself, we have kept a clean sheet better than every third game and average less than a goal a game if you exclude the top four so (once again) you are spouting negative, propaganda to suit your agenda.

Seriously, are you actually a Norwich fan or are you a WUM? Good work if it is the latter because you're certainly winding me up!!

Normally I agree with most of what you say TMC, but if you are not going to count the goals leaked against the top 4, then I assume we didn't play them, which means we would then be one point worse off, which would put us in the bottom 3, which then makes our position a lot worse obviously.

Also, by excluding these goals conceded against the top 4, isn't that almost the same as saying the games we won last season towards the end of the season against the higher placed teams were just because they had nothing to play for or were on the beach?

I seem to remember when certain people said this, that you (I may be wrong here, and apologies if I am) said you could not discount them.

 

[1950canary]

I'm a CH outer (but not until the summer), what would you have the board do though?, sack CH?, do you think a new manager at this stage would be wise?

That is a question the ' outers at all costs ' cannot answer. I am not a great fan of Hughton but if you sack him you have to have a replacement who is suitable, instantly available and who has got enough managerial experience to have any hope of turning things round. Despite being asked many times nobody, yet nobody, can come up with a suitably qualified candidate. A DECISION TAKEN IN PANIC IS USUALLY A BAD ONE - have you learned nothing from the Bryan Gunn disaster? I'm sure the Board have!! All the Board could do now is leave somebody like Calderwood in charge which would be even worse.
If Hughton had to go then it had to happen in Nov/Dec not only to give the new man time and the transfer window but because there was a manager available then who was virtually guaranteed to keep us up but would you really have wanted Tony Pullis at Carrow Road? I can't think of any other manager appointed since who represents an improvement on Hughton and this blood lust for Hughton's head is beginning to resemble a vigilante gang - forget Justice and consequences just hang him!!

 

[Tony_Munky_Canary]

Normally I agree with most of what you say TMC, but if you are not going to count the goals leaked against the top 4, then I assume we didn't play them, which means we would then be one point worse off, which would put us in the bottom 3, which then makes our position a lot worse obviously.

Also, by excluding these goals conceded against the top 4, isn't that almost the same as saying the games we won last season towards the end of the season against the higher placed teams were just because they had nothing to play for or were on the beach?

I seem to remember when certain people said this, that you (I may be wrong here, and apologies if I am) said you could not discount them.

But then surely using the logic from your first paragraph you'd have to take away the points those teams around us picked up against the top four as well, which I'd imagine would push us up the table a bit wouldn't it? Either way it's meaningless, and wasn't really what I was trying to say

I think you are missing my point here, I am well aware that we did concede those goals and I also recognise that we play all the teams twice and the results from all 38 games decides our position at the end of the season. I'm not saying we discount those goals/games because that would be wrong. The point I was trying to make in the second of those posts was to counter the nonsensical argument from Cromer that the fact we've got a -20 goal difference its as if we give every team we play a goal head start! I attempted to do this by demonstrating that the goals we concede aren't spread evenly across the other 19 clubs in the division and that they have in fact been very heavily skewed towards those clubs right at the very top of the tree, you know, the ones who's star player cost more than our entire squad!

 

[robbieBB]

....... Most heartbreaking of all, it undoes all the good work achieved by Lambert followed by Hughton over the previous four / five years. And the board sit idly by, watching as all that afore mentioned good work is systematically destroyed in front of them

This is simply untrue. Even if we are relegated this season, nobody in their right minds could say (as you say here Cromer) that we would be back where we were five years ago. Quote: "it undoes all the good work ......" It does not. Do we immediately return to League One? Do we immediately return to near bankruptcy? Do we immediately return to the state the club was in on and off the field in terms of playing resources, academy, scouting network, backroom staff, etc. etc? No we don't. We have made immense progress in the last five years and relegation this season will not alter that.

 

[robbieBB]

@Canary Rob

Quote:

(4) we have a squad capable of staying in the premier league
(5) being relegated, on the basis of (4) would be a real mistake

Last season Wigan certainly had a squad capable of staying in the PL, but they didn't. The same can be said of quite a number of clubs which are relegated. In fact I'd go so far as to say most of them -- the cases where it is unequivocally not the case are relatively few and far between. The fact is that three teams are relegated however "capable of staying up" they may be. Furthermore, I don't think you could say that anyone at Wigan "made a real mistake". Events and results conspired against a good manager and a sensible board. It happens all the time.

 

[Bath-Canary]

Seriously Bath! good at setting up a defense ? Is that why our goals against column looks so healthy?

Joint 4th in clean sheets this season

 

[Canary Rob]

@Canary Rob

Quote:

(4) we have a squad capable of staying in the premier league
(5) being relegated, on the basis of (4) would be a real mistake

Last season Wigan certainly had a squad capable of staying in the PL, but they didn't. The same can be said of quite a number of clubs which are relegated. In fact I'd go so far as to say most of them -- the cases where it is unequivocally not the case are relatively few and far between. The fact is that three teams are relegated however "capable of staying up" they may be. Furthermore, I don't think you could say that anyone at Wigan "made a real mistake". Events and results conspired against a good manager and a sensible board. It happens all the time.

Not quite sure what your point is Robbie, I'm afraid. Do you disagree that it would be a real mistake to be relegated? Feel free to interpret (4) as "we have a squad more than capable of staying in the premier league". Do you disagree with that? I appreciate that it is a somewhat subjective sentence, but other than being pointlessly pernickity, does anyone disagree that our squad is not in the bottom three in terms of quality? I would say our squad under Lambert was in the bottom three, and therefore had we been relegated it would not have been a real mistake. That's the differentiation I'm making.

Do you believe that all those teams which have been relegated with squads capable of staying up (I agree there have been plenty) do not view it as a real mistake?


I think it would be a real mistake. I'm surprised that anyone would disagree. McNally believes it would be worse than death - not quite so sure on that one, but I think he's on board with my sentiment!

 

[SUPERNORWICH 23]

The managerial situation for me is like having a pet dog that you love but needs to be put down, the dog can either be left to suffer in pain until it`s eventual death with the hope that it pulls through or make the tough decision to put it out of it`s misery .

 

[robbieBB]

Not quite sure what your point is Robbie, I'm afraid. Do you disagree that it would be a real mistake to be relegated? Feel free to interpret (4) as "we have a squad more than capable of staying in the premier league". Do you disagree with that? I appreciate that it is a somewhat subjective sentence, but other than being pointlessly pernickity, does anyone disagree that our squad is not in the bottom three in terms of quality? I would say our squad under Lambert was in the bottom three, and therefore had we been relegated it would not have been a real mistake. That's the differentiation I'm making.

Do you believe that all those teams which have been relegated with squads capable of staying up (I agree there have been plenty) do not view it as a real mistake?

I think it would be a real mistake. I'm surprised that anyone would disagree. McNally believes it would be worse than death - not quite so sure on that one, but I think he's on board with my sentiment!

My point about Wigan was that (a) they had a squad well capable of staying up, (b) a good manager more than capable of keeping them up, (c) a sensible chairman and board with a record of good decision making, yet they were relegated. Was it a "mistake" for them to get relegated? I think that's the wrong word to use in the circumstances. They weren't relegated because of any great failing on the part of the manager and board. They didn't want to be relegated, they didn't intend to be relegated, they took what steps they thought necessary to avoid being relegated -- but they were relegated.

Is our squad one of the three weakest in the league? Possibly; certainly one of the six weakest. Nevertheless we are "well capable" of staying up -- but I'd say the same of the others as well.

Would it be a mistake to be relegated? Again, I think "mistake" is the wrong word. However, taking my cue from your explanation of how you are using it (i.e. it not being a "mistake" had we been relegated in our first season because our squad was one of the three weakest), I don't think it would be a "mistake" if we are relegated this year, since our squad is amongst the weakest and there is so little to choose between all those flirting with relegation -- as the league table bears out.

 

[Canary Rob]

My point about Wigan was that (a) they had a squad well capable of staying up, (b) a good manager more than capable of keeping them up, (c) a sensible chairman and board with a record of good decision making, yet they were relegated. Was it a "mistake" for them to get relegated? I think that's the wrong word to use in the circumstances. They weren't relegated because of any great failing on the part of the manager and board. They didn't want to be relegated, they didn't intend to be relegated, they took what steps they thought necessary to avoid being relegated -- but they were relegated.

Is our squad one of the three weakest in the league? Possibly; certainly one of the six weakest. Nevertheless we are "well capable" of staying up -- but I'd say the same of the others as well.

Would it be a mistake to be relegated? Again, I think "mistake" is the wrong word. However, taking my cue from your explanation of how you are using it (i.e. it not being a "mistake" had we been relegated in our first season because our squad was one of the three weakest), I don't think it would be a "mistake" if we are relegated this year, since our squad is amongst the weakest and there is so little to choose between all those flirting with relegation -- as the league table bears out.

Ah... semantics.

That old chestnut.

 

[robbieBB]

Ah... semantics.

That old chestnut.

No, not semantics. Do me a favour, read my last paragraph. I specifically say that, using the word "mistake" in the sense you explain you are using it, IMO it would not be a mistake if we are relegated.

 

[Tony_Munky_Canary]

I can't believe that for a short time a while back I actually thought you two were the same person

 

[JKCanary]

Robbie vs Rob!

Round 357!

Ding ding! Here we g... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[robbieBB]

Well I do find it a bit rich to have a lawyer complaining about semantics!