Home truths the BR doesn't want to hear....

[Bumps]

I can't abide these digs at Mig (Appreciate it's not just you, OP), he's very young for a keeper and his shop stopping ability is miles better than Reina's flappy hands ever were. I agree his distribution is a bit w**k but I think that will improve, plus Reina used to play it out from the back more wherease Mig hoofs alot, but i think he's been told to do that..? :/

As for the rest of the points, they are symptoms of a threadbare squad that should have been rectified at least marginally this January but for whatever reasons (I have my opinions) it wasn't possible and it could have big implications for the run-in for 4th this season. As if Cissokho should be anywhere near our starting 11, he's acceptable for 3rd round FA cup games at best, a cheap filler player.

I think we tend to look back with rosy glasses - i loved reina but chucked a lot of items in the direction of my tv due to his errors, and the thing with reinas errors were they always came in the high profile games. After first two seasons he didnt get anywhere near penalties neither think the two are as good as each other, would be great to have them fighting for no1 jersey

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

I can't abide these digs at Mig (Appreciate it's not just you, OP), he's very young for a keeper and his shop stopping ability is miles better than Reina's flappy hands ever were. I agree his distribution is a bit w**k but I think that will improve, plus Reina used to play it out from the back more wherease Mig hoofs alot, but i think he's been told to do that..? :/

As for the rest of the points, they are symptoms of a threadbare squad that should have been rectified at least marginally this January but for whatever reasons (I have my opinions) it wasn't possible and it could have big implications for the run-in for 4th this season. As if Cissokho should be anywhere near our starting 11, he's acceptable for 3rd round FA cup games at best, a cheap filler player.

Reina has flappy hands? Ffs, seen 'chocolate wrists' Mingolet let in three goals so far this season with his limp attempts at stopping the ball.

 

[danilo.]

I can't abide these digs at Mig (Appreciate it's not just you, OP), he's very young for a keeper and his shop stopping ability is miles better than Reina's flappy hands ever were. I agree his distribution is a bit w**k but I think that will improve, plus Reina used to play it out from the back more wherease Mig hoofs alot, but i think he's been told to do that..? :/

As for the rest of the points, they are symptoms of a threadbare squad that should have been rectified at least marginally this January but for whatever reasons (I have my opinions) it wasn't possible and it could have big implications for the run-in for 4th this season. As if Cissokho should be anywhere near our starting 11, he's acceptable for 3rd round FA cup games at best, a cheap filler player.

Reina has flappy hands? Ffs, seen 'chocolate wrists' Mingolet let in three goals so far this season with his limp attempts at stopping the ball.

Ive also seen him stop about 15 more shots from outside the box than Reina did in about 2 years.

Neither have excellent aerial command with Reina slightly edging it on experience.

 

[totsfan]

Sorry KKK, I don't think they (Spurs and Everton) are Underperforming..

With regards to Spurs Totsfan... Underperforming... really, how so? When sacked AvB had he not had the best start to the season you guys ever had in the PL?
Since then You've won 4, drew 2 and lost 1?
How's that under-performing?
Me thinks you maybe getting ahead of yourself a wee bit?
Any better than that and you'll be league leaders and you're not that good!
We, on the other hand are over performing, of all the teams in the top 7, I think we (maybe even Everton) have least depth to our squad (no ones fault other than our own of course).
True, we've been carried by the form of the SAS this year but which team hasn't be relient of a player or two recently, Messi, Ronaldo, Bale for you lot last, RvP for Untied.
We have all the top sides to play at Home, where we've been pretty decent this year.
Not saying we're gonna finish 4th, far from it, battle for top 4 is between teams 4th-7th and it's gonna go down to the wire as teams this year will continue to slip up..

I did'nt say we were underpeforming KKK did,i was asking the question,i agree with you,i believe it's between 5 teams for 4th this season

 

[Skylarker]

I did'nt say we were underpeforming KKK did,i was asking the question,i agree with you,i believe it's between 5 teams for 4th this season

I would say 3 teams. Liverpool, Everton and Spurs. I can't see Utd getting it, they have too many big holes and terrible manager. I have no idea who you think the 5th team is unless you think one of the current top 3 could drop down?

 

[kph103]

It's really disappointing to throw points away as we did on Sunday but WBA are no mugs and, I believe, are in a false position. In fact if they had stayed with Clarke they would be higher up the league.
Anyway, a week ago we were all drooling over our Everton performance. Yet just a few days later we are saying the players aren't good enough.
The reina debate is a good one but I for one felt it was time for him to move on. His shot stopping had become mediocre to say the least. Yes his distribution was good but that no good if your likely to throw one in the net.
It's mings first season, give him time. Look how much DeGea improved after a rubbish first season.

We all know cissokho shouldn't be in a red shirt but other than that it's the same players who were outstanding against Everton.
Our biggest sin is not recruiting through the last window. If you watched the Chelsea game last night you can see what a difference a top class DM makes. Matic was superb (as was willian) until we get our transfer dealings right we will always have performances like this. Fortunately it didn't turn into a hull result, which for me is the most depressing result of the season. We have played poorly in 2 of our last 3 games but still got points. We wouldn't have done that last season.

 

[SIR_KENNY_KLOPP_KING]

Migs is fine. We didn't know if Reina was coming or going so we had to buy. We did and Mignolet will keep improving as he players more. He's still young for a keeper. I feel safer with Mignolet in goal and don't worry about silly mistakes as much - anecdotal I know, but that's how I feel. That kind of thing can rub off on defenders too.

Disagree with the hoofing thing in part. Mignolet, moreso in the last few weeks, has really tried to look for passes out but usually there really aren't many options or the opposition are pressing right back to our 18yard. Against West Brom especially, I remember the ball going out to the fullbacks, who then had to turn backwards to the CBs who then had to turn back to the Keeper...and then hoofed out. I'd look at the midfield, personally. Where are they? Where are the triangles? Since we lost Lucas and Allen, we've lost control of the midfield and rely solely on counter attacking football and Gerrard's long, through balls to get goals. Unfortunately, you can expect more long balls from Mignolet until those two are restored to the starting line up.

I can't remember who mentioned Skrtel along with hoofing (as is the common misconception), and I countered that argument last season with stats - well, here's some more for this season.
http://www.squawka.com/news/2013/11...-shows-just-how-far-he-has-come/2013111234290
November, Martin had the highest pass completion rate in the squad. You don't get that by hoofing the ball. His passing is great, he has even started dropping the shoulder and carrying the ball alot more than he used to, stepping up to the halfway line looking for a better option.

Cissokho, fine. He's been awful for us, but he played ok the last two games and at least he tries unlike a certain other RB. So I'll back him over Johnson, just for that reason.

Gerrard making us play deeper. Kind of agree. He seems to almost play along side the CBs lately, but I wouldn't say he's playing bad. Last two games he's done well in the position. Yeah, we play deeper overall, but I think that's just one of the things we'll have to accept with starting Gerrard in this role. He's no spring chicken...

I think Sterling has been great lately. We used to knock him for his strength and lack of confidence to run at people, his decision making and his final ball. Now he's much stronger and helping more successfully defensively because of it, he runs at and past people again and his decision making of when to hold and when to pass or run is much improved. That's a huge improvement in 6 months to a year. Final ball will come. He's a great little player who works hard and keeps on improving.

Exactly. It's why we conceded at the weekend. And the difference between the two keepers is that Reina's distribution could bypass this, taking two or three opposition players totally out of the game and put us on attack. That, in this team, would be awesome! If Mig's could do that a few times, I wouldn't be complaining but his distribution is really, really bad. maybe we were spoilt with Reina because his was world class.

 

[DirtyFrank]

True but if we are playing hypothetical what ifs, going on his form before he left there are about 2 or 3 saves Migs has made I'd have bet Reina wouldn't have and as such would have been 3 or 4 points less than our current total. In this years league that's the difference between 4th and 6th.

Green grass is green.

As for the general op title, I've seen nothing to suggest any arrogance in BR that he'd refuse to hear criticism of his efforts so far. He seems receptive to change.

As a young man with a plan he came in with grand ideas but I've seen him be pragmatic in view of what he's had available to him in the current squad and who he's been able to bring in.

Yes he's tinkered a lot but why not? He's learning what the squad can do, sometimes that needs exposed in a match not just looking good training. Might as well try all options possible with existing squad if you don't have city money to trial and error through transfers.

I've seen him drop stuff that doesn't work, if not players, but them he's closer to them in training than I am.

I've seen him attempt to change set ups in matches when clear it's not working a lot quicker than some of his predecessors.

So the manager in my mind is, like our squad a work in progress but like the squad progress IS being made and more rapidly than I thought it would this year.

 

[SIR_KENNY_KLOPP_KING]

True but if we are playing hypothetical what ifs, going on his form before he left there are about 2 or 3 saves Migs has made I'd have bet Reina wouldn't have and as such would have been 3 or 4 points less than our current total. In this years league that's the difference between 4th and 6th.

Green grass is green.

As for the general op title, I've seen nothing to suggest any arrogance in BR that he'd refuse to hear criticism of his efforts so far. He seems receptive to change.

As a young man with a plan he came in with grand ideas but I've seen him be pragmatic in view of what he's had available to him in the current squad and who he's been able to bring in.

Yes he's tinkered a lot but why not? He's learning what the squad can do, sometimes that needs exposed in a match not just looking good training. Might as well try all options possible with existing squad if you don't have city money to trial and error through transfers.

I've seen him drop stuff that doesn't work, if not players, but them he's closer to them in training than I am.

I've seen him attempt to change set ups in matches when clear it's not working a lot quicker than some of his predecessors.

So the manager in my mind is, like our squad a work in progress but like the squad progress IS being made and more rapidly than I thought it would this year.

Who knows if Reina would make the same mistakes or saves as Migs. Nobody. Who knows that Reina's distribution is 100% better than Mig's. Everybody, there is no argument. Hardly Hypothetical.

As for BR, he has to work with the squad he has and I agree that we've over-achieved given what we have. That doesn't make the op title any less valid. I bet he'd like a more solid DM option, Sterling to have a better end-product, that he didn't have to play Toure and Cissy. So I'll also bet that he doesn't want to hear it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if he gets fourth with this squad, he'll deserve the keys to the City. Unfortunately, every time we look like cementing fouth, we throw it away. Badly.

Roll on the European competition.....another small difference that benefits us. We need everything to fall in our favour from here on in. If you know a leprechaun, rub his head

 

[saintanton]

We've had this Reina debate on and off all season.
We all know each others opinions on it by now, if we've bothered to take any notice. Those opinions aren't likely to change, but neither is the reality just because we continue to argue the toss over it all the time. Whichever way you want to word it, BR was trying to build a long term future and on his own admission, Pepe was not going to be a significant part of that.
As for his distribution, it was second-to-none and yes, we had been spoiled, but a keeper's primary job is to keep the ball out of the net- anything else is a luxury, not a minimum requirement.

 

[DirtyFrank]

Who knows if Reina would make the same mistakes or saves as Migs. Nobody. Who knows that Reina's distribution is 100% better than Mig's. Everybody, there is no argument. Hardly Hypothetical.

As for BR, he has to work with the squad he has and I agree that we've over-achieved given what we have. That doesn't make the title any less valid. I bet he'd like a more solid DM option, Sterling to have a better end-product, that he didn't have to play Toure and Cissy. So I'll also bet that he doesn't want to hear it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if he gets fourth with this squad, he'll deserve the keys to the City. Unfortunately, every time we look like cementing fouth, we throw it away. Badly.

Roll on the European competition.....another small difference that benefits us. We need everything to fall in our favour from here on in. If you know a leprechaun, rub his head

I'll do more than rub his head if I catch him! Despite not thinking we'd get 4th this year i have to say watching how tight the last CL spot is has me worried if we don't get it for competing again next year. Even taking away the probability that Suarez will leave (did no new players effect team morale for WB match, it shouldn't but you never know).

On the Reina issue, that's my point you can only make an educated guess. You focus on Reinas undeniable superiority in distribution and suggest it would of possibly saved us 2 points. I won't disagree with that.

But it is also true that Reinas shot stopping (of very saveable shots) had deteriorated quite alarmingly in his last year. That leads me to question whether it would have cost similar pts this year.

Both are hypothetical in the sense we can never know as it'll never happen. You predicted based on a positive aspect of Reinas game, I predicted on a negative aspect of his game. We'll never know. Migs, does need to improve his distribution though, it's a big part of what BR wants his keeper to do. I'd like to think BR sees improvement potential in that area or he and his scouts need questioned lol.

Fair enough on the title point. I took it in a context that he thought he knew best (or you thought he thought he know best lol) going by above post you meant he's got issues that he'd rather not have and doesn't need reminded about.

Well he better not read forums like this because we'll bloody remind him!

 

[SIR_KENNY_KLOPP_KING]

We've had this Reina debate on and off all season.
We all know each others opinions on it by now, if we've bothered to take any notice. Those opinions aren't likely to change, but neither is the reality just because we continue to argue the toss over it all the time. Whichever way you want to word it, BR was trying to build a long term future and on his own admission, Pepe was not going to be a significant part of that.
As for his distribution, it was second-to-none and yes, we had been spoiled, but a keeper's primary job is to keep the ball out of the net- anything else is a luxury, not a minimum requirement.

In rafa's years he won 3 golden gloves didn't he!! He was pretty decent at his primary job too....Reina is a top keeper who had a sticky patch and by all accounts lost a bit of focus......but you're right of course, BR made his choice and we have to live with it....and no amount of opinion either way will change it....It doesn't bloody well help though when you watch the mess of Sunday over again. Hope Mig's is staying on the training ground working on it!

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

We've had this Reina debate on and off all season.
We all know each others opinions on it by now, if we've bothered to take any notice. Those opinions aren't likely to change, but neither is the reality just because we continue to argue the toss over it all the time. Whichever way you want to word it, BR was trying to build a long term future and on his own admission, Pepe was not going to be a significant part of that.
As for his distribution, it was second-to-none and yes, we had been spoiled, but a keeper's primary job is to keep the ball out of the net- anything else is a luxury, not a minimum requirement.

I mostly agree... however in the modern game the player you just described is jones, not mingolet. ability with ball at feet is not a luxury.

reina was world class... mingolet is not.. and i'm talking ball at feet here

that aid it is pointless to debate BUT when the season is weighed this will be in the negative column and results are what need to go in the positive column... i.e. deliver 4th and an fa cup nobody cares... deliver 6th again.. you are in trouble.

its all about results in this game

 

[saintanton]

I mostly agree... however in the modern game the player you just described is jones, not mingolet. ability with ball at feet is not a luxury.

reina was world class... mingolet is not.. and i'm talking ball at feet here

that aid it is pointless to debate BUT when the season is weighed this will be in the negative column and results are what need to go in the positive column... i.e. deliver 4th and an fa cup nobody cares... deliver 6th again.. you are in trouble.

its all about results in this game

Well, if you can get both then great. But I'd rather my keeper kept the ball out of the net than showed how accurately he can throw it back to the centre circle from the back of it.
It's just a case of priorities, if we have to have one then shot-stopping is more important. Also I consider it more an innate ability, whereas distribution can hopefully be improved by coaching.


********

What irks me a bit is many of those who were slagging Pepe off for the last season or two are the same ones who are now wishing he was back.
I was always a big fan of Reina and willing to go easy on him when he lost form, but he's gone (probably) and we have to look to the future.

 

[SIR_KENNY_KLOPP_KING]

Well, if you can get both then great. But I'd rather my keeper kept the ball out of the net than showed how accurately he can throw it back to the centre circle from the back of it.
It's just a case of priorities, if we have to have one then shot-stopping is more important. Also I consider it more an innate ability, whereas distribution can hopefully be improved by coaching.


********

What irks me a bit is many of those who were slagging Pepe off for the last season or two are the same ones who are now wishing he was back.
I was always a big fan of Reina and willing to go easy on him when he lost form, but he's gone (probably) and we have to look to the future.

Pepe was a great shot stopper too. I do believe that he lost concentration somewhat in his last year, akin to what we saw with Joe Hart this year. I wonder if there's a link to competition for places? In Reina's final couple of year, he had none, neither does Mig's really. Can't be healthy to keep elite players on their toes can it?

 

[DirtyFrank]

Well debate aside I'll comfort myself in statistics.

Up to this point last year we had conceded 32 goals compared to today's 29. That's considering that our main FB's have been largely missing through injury or mental head feck. Our CB's haven't had a settled 2 all season. And the odd lurch into 3 at the back madness.

I'll not say DM is a new issue as injury plagued us last year.

So maybe small, but improvement non the less.

Obviously our increased points/league position has more to with SAS than defence lol....

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Well, if you can get both then great. But I'd rather my keeper kept the ball out of the net than showed how accurately he can throw it back to the centre circle from the back of it.
It's just a case of priorities, if we have to have one then shot-stopping is more important. Also I consider it more an innate ability, whereas distribution can hopefully be improved by coaching.


********

What irks me a bit is many of those who were slagging Pepe off for the last season or two are the same ones who are now wishing he was back.
I was always a big fan of Reina and willing to go easy on him when he lost form, but he's gone (probably) and we have to look to the future.

I wasn't.

I was the FIRST on this site to say he was making errors AND the first to praise the guy for putting it right when others consistently denied it AND the first to say the crap rodgers pulled was wrong, in the face of consistently being told reina was past it or not caring. I have always been consistent on it. I simply hold all players to high standards

I must simply list some stuf fhere.

top 4 keepers

Hart: good distribution
De gea (ex top 4 h ah) excellent distribution
Cech, good distribution
unpronounceable arsenal keeper preety good distribution

All are excellent shot stoppers too and all have flogged goals at times.

mingolet is separated from these guys by one thing.. his ability with ball at feet (an in hand)

to improve mingolet has to move quicker, be more positive and hit his targets. he's improved from bad to decent this year in fairness but there is a huge gap to the others.

moderns keepers simply have to be able to do this and thats why jones is championship std.

 

[DirtyFrank]

Pepe was a great shot stopper too. I do believe that he lost concentration somewhat in his last year, akin to what we saw with Joe Hart this year. I wonder if there's a link to competition for places? In Reina's final couple of year, he had none, neither does Mig's really. Can't be healthy to keep elite players on their toes can it?

I do agree with this. Not sure it could ever really have happened with Reina and Migs though, Migs cost too much to be young understudy and my gut says if Reina had been replaced at anytime with migs due to poor performance we'd have heard a lot more about leaving than we did.

Jones isn't good competition though. Far far too comfortable to play second fiddle. We should use it as income generation. Constantly have a young hungry keeper snapping at Migs heels, if he stays the better keeper we sell other for a profit, if other is better he gets dropped and fights for it back.

I know you don't generally want chopping and changing at the back if you can help it but comp is needed every position.

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that the Pepe of old (2-3 years ago) was a monster and a truly world class keeper. That Pepe is easily better than the current Migs.

Unfortunately, complacency crept into his game over the past 2 years and he was making mistakes frequently. It's a shame because I'm a massive fan of his and I still have a lot of respect for him.

Right now, Migs is a better shot stopper than Reina and that's comparing the saves to shots ratio between Migs this season and Reina's last season with us. (I'll try and find those stats)

 

[totsfan]

I would say 3 teams. Liverpool, Everton and Spurs. I can't see Utd getting it, they have too many big holes and terrible manager. I have no idea who you think the 5th team is unless you think one of the current top 3 could drop down?

I do think Arsenal will drop in,they have a small squad,and the C/L to deal with,so it's a big ask for them, imo