Holding midfielders

[Spurm]

There is less need for a holding midfielder if you are a counter attacking team, as the majority of the time you defend as a group and then break out quickly. Liverpool are currently playing with Gerrard as the holder, and he's hardly ultra defensive.
You don't often get hit on the counter from a counter of your own.

If you are pressing or spending a lot of time in your opponents half then a holding midfielder (whether it be a dedicated one of just one of your midfielders fulfilling the duties) is more important as you often have your full backs pushed forward too as someone else already mentioned

 

[notsosmartspur]

There is less need for a holding midfielder if you are a counter attacking team, as the majority of the time you defend as a group and then break out quickly. Liverpool are currently playing with Gerrard as the holder, and he's hardly ultra defensive.
You don't often get hit on the counter from a counter of your own.

If you are pressing or spending a lot of time in your opponents half then a holding midfielder (whether it be a dedicated one of just one of your midfielders fulfilling the duties) is more important as you often have your full backs pushed forward too as someone else already mentioned

Quite right, but we weren't that countering team under avb, we were having the lion share of possession in games, I'm not sure we will be under TS either, i don't think he'll completely sit and counter like Pool do, so we'll be needing an HM in some guise.

 

[Spurm]

Quite right, but we weren't that countering team under avb, we were having the lion share of possession in games, I'm not sure we will be under TS either, i don't think he'll completely sit and counter like Pool do, so we'll be needing an HM in some guise.

yes, i was talking in general. I have no idea which way Spurs are going under Sherwood yet other than give the ball the Ade

 

[Dier Hard]

yes, i was talking in general. I have no idea which way Spurs are going under Sherwood yet other than give the ball the Ade

*Give the ball to Eriksen to give the ball to Ade

 

[Spurf]

*Give the ball to Eriksen to give the ball to Ade

Give the ball to Lennon to give the ball to Eriksen to give the ball to Ade.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

I've got to disagree with you there. I think we agree about things, and yet argue anyway...

You couldn't be more wrong, we agree to argue about things and then argue about whether we agree.

Just because AVB couldnt utilise a DM in a team that could also score goals, doesnt mean it's a bad tactic.
Plenty of managers have DMs that sit back but can still utilise their wingers and strikers and actually score goals. (Mourinho, Klopp, Sir Alex Ferguson to name but a few).
AVB was just a dreadful manager and Sir Les is a thick c**t like his cousin (must run in the family) who got annoyed at AVBs ineptitude.

He didn't say defensive midfielders don't work. All he said that holding midfielders have become common since the success of Makelele but that he doesn't think it's necessary and has created a lot of limited midfielders that don't/can't get involved in the attacking side of the game. Mikel and Khedira are good examples of what he's talking about, they used to be very good on the ball and both started out as attacking midfielders(I believe) but now they're so painted into their defensive role that they don't pass it more than a few yards and are rarely involved in attacking play.

Probably best to check what he's said before you starting calling people thick, eh?

 

[No Kane No Gain]

Slight exaggeration there YV, he's started 14 of 22 and 4 sub apps, they've done better out of him than we have out of Sandro! 18 games out 22 isn't bad for a position that attracts injury, and again, I'm not entirely tributing Flamini with their improvement, but he has certainly played a bigger part than your prepared to give. Obviously Mertesacker has settled and improved, there are these and other factors playing a part, but another is having this HM that supporters, pundits, you name it, have all said Arsenal were missing.

I don't see any team moving away from a HM. No two players play it the same way, but the fundamental job is to sit and protect the back4, just incase there's a counter-attack when his partner has gone forward. That tactic will not be 'moved away from' anytime soon. Defensive work is spread out anyway when you don't have the ball, you defend mainly as two banks of 4, you're not arranged as one holding and the other gone forward!

What is becoming apparent imo, is the variety of players that play there with different skillsets, its not a case of getting any old DM/HM, the position has evolved and you need to look at what else is missing from the team that a HM and 'his' skillsets can bring to your team. Example, Alonso and Dembele, both HM's, primary job, both can tackle and win the ball, but once he's got it does your team need a range passer or a dribbler? Horses for courses again.

I did say games started and 14 out of 22 is half... kind of... okay, fair enough.

I guess it depends if you think holding midfielder = defensive midfielder. I never took it to mean that and I don't think Ferdinand does either, he was talking about Makelele like he was the first holding midfielder in the Premier League and I take that to mean he believes a holding midfielder is a defensive midfielder with a very limited, defence orientated role, which is what I think of when I see holding midfielder. Sherwood was a defensive midfielder so he'd be a bit daft trying to tell him he doesn't like the position. He also mentions Fernandinho who by anyone's standard is a defensive midfielder but the fact that he's the more defensive midfielder in the partnership doesn't define his role into only defensive duties. That's why if you compared him to Mikel he'll probably have a higher number of shots and generally be more likely to get involved in attacking play.

 

[Spurm]

Give the ball to Lennon to give the ball to Eriksen to give the ball to Ade.

Holy crap guys, this is all coming together. Soon we'll have a whole playbook full of moves, the team will be wearing helmets with mics and headphones and Sherwood can dictate the play from the sidelines using a cryptic set of codes that the captain deciphers from a cheat sheet on his arm.
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FOOTBALL!

 

[Spurf]

Holy crap guys, this is all coming together. Soon we'll have a whole playbook full of moves, the team will be wearing helmets with mics and headphones and Sherwood can dictate the play from the sidelines using a cryptic set of codes that the captain deciphers from a cheat sheet on his arm.
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FOOTBALL!

Did we not try that already with AVB?

 

[Spurm]

Did we not try that already with AVB?

It worked well if i remember

 

[Spurf]

It worked well if i remember

Fight!

 

[Bodinki]

You couldn't be more wrong, we agree to argue about things and then argue about whether we agree.



He didn't say defensive midfielders don't work. All he said that holding midfielders have become common since the success of Makelele but that he doesn't think it's necessary and has created a lot of limited midfielders that don't/can't get involved in the attacking side of the game. Mikel and Khedira are good examples of what he's talking about, they used to be very good on the ball and both started out as attacking midfielders(I believe) but now they're so painted into their defensive role that they don't pass it more than a few yards and are rarely involved in attacking play.

Probably best to check what he's said before you starting calling people thick, eh?

What does that even mean? Necessary for what?
Its a proven tactic that many managers have employed with great success.
Probably best to check what you are saying makes sense before writing an article about it, eh?

 

[No Kane No Gain]

What does that even mean? Necessary for what?
Its a proven tactic that many managers have employed with great success.
Probably best to check what you are saying makes sense before writing an article about it, eh?

It makes perfect sense if you read Ferdinand's quotes and understand context. So read the quotes and apply it to what I've said, it's the decent thing to do before you reply to a thread

 

[notsosmartspur]

You couldn't be more wrong, we agree to argue about things and then argue about whether we agree.



He didn't say defensive midfielders don't work. All he said that holding midfielders have become common since the success of Makelele but that he doesn't think it's necessary and has created a lot of limited midfielders that don't/can't get involved in the attacking side of the game. Mikel and Khedira are good examples of what he's talking about, they used to be very good on the ball and both started out as attacking midfielders(I believe) but now they're so painted into their defensive role that they don't pass it more than a few yards and are rarely involved in attacking play.

You do have to question Les a bit, since Makelele??, pure bandwagon crap, why does the frenchman get the credit? anyone would think he invented it, David Batty was in two successful sides 10 years earlier doing that very job and nothing else, nasty player with limited talent, but broke up play and kept possession with that famous side-foot pass of his...he didn't have another one!, and he was disciplined to stay back...what more do you want from a HM?

He's not saying anything new really, has he only just noticed the difference between out and out holding midfielders, and midfielders that can hold. Of course any team would prefer two allrounders...try finding one, let alone two! but thats not going to happen. The role isn't going to go away, you can't just have all your MFers vacate their own half and piss off up the pitch, therefore, you will always have one staying back whether its a two or 3 man MF, and certain players will prefer to do that. No, its not necessary to have an out and out DM, as long as you have someone who does, tell us something we don't know. I really can't see a massive pow-wow between Les and Tim over this.

Having seen Mikels shooting I find it very hard to believe he was ever an AM!

 

[NSIS]

You have only to watch the "highlights" of last night on MOTD, and for once, Hansen is absolutely right. He highlighted how Dembele and Bentaleb offered no protection whatsoever to our back 4 last night. If ever there was a clear cut case for a holding midfield player, this illustrated it perfectly.

Maybe Les and co should take a good look and reconsider their ill judged opinion.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

Notso, he wasn't saying Makelele was the first ever but he was in a very successful team and lots of other sides looked to employ holding midfielders like Makelele. And I assure you Mikel was an attacking midfielder and I think he won best player or something at a youth World Cup playing in that kind of role.

You have only to watch the "highlights" of last night on MOTD, and for once, Hansen is absolutely right. He highlighted how Dembele and Bentaleb offered no protection whatsoever to our back 4 last night. If ever there was a clear cut case for a holding midfield player, this illustrated it perfectly.

Maybe Les and co should take a good look and reconsider their ill judged opinion.

I thought it was a really crap bit of punditry, the highlights he picked just showed that Bentaleb and Dembele were playing in midfield, they were getting criticised at one stage for not being in the area when City only had one player in the area themselves. I do think they were naive and that they should have been keeping an eye on Silva as Walker couldn't follow him in field but the punditry. Like with lots of things it's easy to say with hindisght that we needed a holding midfielder but that's what pundits thrive on. There wasn't a single person who stood up for Pellegrini when he played 2 upfront at home against Bayern Munich, it was naive they said, well you wouldn't question Pellegrini's tactics now would you? The team's more settled now thanks to playing the same formation regularly and they're unstoppable, particularly at home.

 

[Boss]

A holding midfielder is a tricky job at times, especially when you face a team like City who have great movement, which is why you often see players running around leaving gaps or failing to pick up players. its a touch role in the team and very easy to take apart, in an analysis.

This is why Sandro should be the first name on the team sheet when fit, the guy is superb at intercepting and reading the attacking play so to make sure hes in decent positions and if he does get caught out he will chase down the ball until he wins it back.

Players like Dembele and Bentaleb aren't anywhere near the ability of Sandro for defensive duties and Sherwood is going to have to decide who partners Sandro, as if he overlooks Sandro then that will be an error on his part.

 

[NSIS]

Notso, he wasn't saying Makelele was the first ever but he was in a very successful team and lots of other sides looked to employ holding midfielders like Makelele. And I assure you Mikel was an attacking midfielder and I think he won best player or something at a youth World Cup playing in that kind of role.



I thought it was a really crap bit of punditry, the highlights he picked just showed that Bentaleb and Dembele were playing in midfield, they were getting criticised at one stage for not being in the area when City only had one player in the area themselves. I do think they were naive and that they should have been keeping an eye on Silva as Walker couldn't follow him in field but the punditry. Like with lots of things it's easy to say with hindisght that we needed a holding midfielder but that's what pundits thrive on. There wasn't a single person who stood up for Pellegrini when he played 2 upfront at home against Bayern Munich, it was naive they said, well you wouldn't question Pellegrini's tactics now would you? The team's more settled now thanks to playing the same formation regularly and they're unstoppable, particularly at home.

I guess we'll have to,agree to disagree. We're not Man City! I thought it perfectly highlighted the job that a Sandro, or Gareth Barry would have done. Neither Bentaleb or Dembele offered our back 4 any protection last night. Suicide against a team of City's quality.

 

[KingHotspur]

A holding midfielder is a tricky job at times, especially when you face a team like City who have great movement, which is why you often see players running around leaving gaps or failing to pick up players. its a touch role in the team and very easy to take apart, in an analysis.

This is why Sandro should be the first name on the team sheet when fit, the guy is superb at intercepting and reading the attacking play so to make sure hes in decent positions and if he does get caught out he will chase down the ball until he wins it back.

Players like Dembele and Bentaleb aren't anywhere near the ability of Sandro for defensive duties and Sherwood is going to have to decide who partners Sandro, as if he overlooks Sandro then that will be an error on his part.

Agree completely.

We need one of our central midfielders to be of a defensive mind set with the ability to protect the back 4 and break up play.

AvB made the mistake of playing without one and kept choosing Dembele and Paulinho when he should of just chose one alongside Sandro or Capoue.

If we keep playing with a duo of Paulinho/Dembele, Paulinho/Bentaleb or Bentaleb/Dembele then we will get beat by lesser teams than City.

 

[notsosmartspur]

I thought it was a really crap bit of punditry, the highlights he picked just showed that Bentaleb and Dembele were playing in midfield, they were getting criticised at one stage for not being in the area when City only had one player in the area themselves. I do think they were naive and that they should have been keeping an eye on Silva as Walker couldn't follow him in field but the punditry. Like with lots of things it's easy to say with hindisght that we needed a holding midfielder but that's what pundits thrive on. There wasn't a single person who stood up for Pellegrini when he played 2 upfront at home against Bayern Munich, it was naive they said, well you wouldn't question Pellegrini's tactics now would you? The team's more settled now thanks to playing the same formation regularly and they're unstoppable, particularly at home.

I thought it was bang on punditry, don't care it came from Hansen, he wasn't wrong. They showed not just one example, but half a dozen, 3 times just jogging around facing there own goal, standing and watching on our 18yd line a couple of times, that was with 11 and 10 men, that made no difference. I'm not going to be hard on Bentaleb there, he's young, and had a serious lesson there, but imo, he was out of his depth, positionally all over the show, needed some direction off someone really, just didn't happen. It was blatant through the game YV, you didn't need retrospective analysis to see that surely.