4 midfielders or 3 forwards

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Saintalona

Saintalona

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2011
2,259
356
83
Southampton
Watching the palace game I really didn't think it worked having Davis in the left midfield spot. So do we need to play JRod who would give us more options in attack. I would like to see JWP as I really think we would benefit great crossing ability. Or would you suggest someone else?
 
We played a sort of 4-4-2 diamond though and that doesn't suit Davis. He needs to be in the middle and involved not on the left.
 
------------Boruc
---------Fonte-Lovren-
-Clyne------------------Shaw--
----Schneiderlin-Wanyama
------------------------Davis
Lallana----------------------
--------------Lambert-------
---------Osvaldo------------

That was the formation for me. Davis was a slightly tucked left midfielder/left central midfielder. He didn't get forward much. Only really remember him getting to the edge of the Palace box. He was ensuring Osvaldo and Lambert had space. Shaw was overlapping really wide so he didn't crowd things centrally either. Lallana was playing high up as a right winger and drifting centrally sometimes. Davis helped us a lot when we didn't have the ball. He pressed well. Rodriguez ruins the balance of the team when Osvaldo and Lambert are also starting. Davis is often an option for the midfield, Shaw or Clyne to pass forward to his feet. Rodriguez goes too high constantly and gives Osvaldo and Lambert no space.

My view is to look at the team in attack and defence collectively rather than looking at Davis as an individual. I feel because Davis gives Lambert, Osvaldo and Lallana more freedom we're better on the attack with Davis in the side.. and he provides more when we lose the ball.
 
At this stage I feel we don't have quite the right attacking mid to play most matches with 4 mids. I want gaston to be that player, still hopeful. With 3 strikers ie Lambert, J-rod, Osvaldo I worry that we don't dominate midfield enough.
 
I'd personally prefer to see more of JWP; and not just for his dead ball ability (IMO the best in the squad).
I think he gives us more pace than Davis and is better both going forward and feeding Rickie & Dani. It's obvious why, at 18, he was protected against the physicality of West Ham and Sunderland; but I thought he'd start against Palace. Given that he didn't I'm going to guess Davis will start again.
 
I was thinking about doing a thread about our Bielsa-esque tactics after the game, but at first I couldn't be bothered and then I had to go to work and then I just forgot about it. Here's what I thought of our tactics:

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Starting positions don't really matter if you're playing a fluid game, but here's how they can sort of be interpreted.

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Wanyama is holding the centre of midfield without difficulty. Both Jedinak and Dikgacoi have been deployed with defensive roles. The Palace strikers are rather isolated. Bannan drifts inside to attempt to add more to their midfield presence; he is marked by Schneiderlin. Davis drifts around a lot.

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In the attacking phase, the fullbacks want to provide width, so they come forward and Fonte and Lovren cover their gaps, with Wanyama then keeping it tight in the middle. It essentially becomes a fluid 3-4-3.
 
Joe said:
I was thinking about doing a thread about our Bielsa-esque tactics after the game, but at first I couldn't be bothered and then I had to go to work and then I just forgot about it. Here's what I thought of our tactics:

You must log in or register to see images


Starting positions don't really matter if you're playing a fluid game, but here's how they can sort of be interpreted.

You must log in or register to see images


Wanyama is holding the centre of midfield without difficulty. Both Jedinak and Dikgacoi have been deployed with defensive roles. The Palace strikers are rather isolated. Bannan drifts inside to attempt to add more to their midfield presence; he is marked by Schneiderlin. Davis drifts around a lot.

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In the attacking phase, the fullbacks want to provide width, so they come forward and Fonte and Lovren cover their gaps, with Wanyama then keeping it tight in the middle. It essentially becomes a fluid 3-4-3.
Click to expand...

Pretty decent and concise anaylsis I think. The worry is that you get caught short down the sides against a team that can break quickly (Arsenal, Spurs, City) but our fullbacks have the pace to get back 9/10 times but I do have my worries when we come up against a team with quality and pace. That's why I think Coutinho missing for Lpool was huge...he has the quality to provide the right balls for Liverpool to make the most of their pace.

Going forward, this fluid tactic is exciting and, when our strikers really have their tails up, I think we can look forward to some pretty exciting, free-scoring football, coupled with the high-pressure, organised system we have without the ball now, very much à la Bielsa.
 
I think we have always played a fluid 4-2 under MP. It's always been a double pivot with the defensive midfielders. It seems like Schneiderlin was a little more comfortable going forward than Cork so he would be up a bit more often, but that was due more to individual playing style as opposed to being assigned a particular role. Either one could go forward if they wished and the other would cover.

I thought the formation against Crystal Palace was more of a 4-3-3 but again, that could be more to playing styles and/or individual match-ups. Lallana likes to get forward and Davis is more of a midfielder so it kinda ended up with Schneiderlin, Wanyama and Davis in a line, and Lallana hanging out more with Osvaldo and Lambert.
 
I Sorry I Ruined The Party said:
I think we have always played a fluid 4-2 under MP. It's always been a double pivot with the defensive midfielders. It seems like Schneiderlin was a little more comfortable going forward than Cork so he would be up a bit more often, but that was due more to individual playing style as opposed to being assigned a particular role. Either one could go forward if they wished and the other would cover.

I thought the formation against Crystal Palace was more of a 4-3-3 but again, that could be more to playing styles and/or individual match-ups. Lallana likes to get forward and Davis is more of a midfielder so it kinda ended up with Schneiderlin, Wanyama and Davis in a line, and Lallana hanging out more with Osvaldo and Lambert.
Click to expand...

I think that's because Lallana has earned the right to roam this season. I think there's a few players vying for that role with a bit more freedom and Lallana is the closest anybody has come to staking a claim for that position
 
I don't agree at all that's it's 4-3-3 . Average player positions on whoscored have Lambert and Osvaldo both central. When we lost the ball we clearly defended as 4-4-1-1 with Lallana RM and Davis LM.

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I personally feel it should be 5 midfielders and one striker (putting people like Lallana, Ramirez and perhaps Rodriguez into the midfielder group) as I really don't feel playing two out and out strikers is working very well. I feel we're missing a link between midfield and attack which means the ball ends up being shifted around the centre backs with no one to fill the gap in the midfield. Personally I'd like to see this in the future:
Wanyama Schneiderlin
Ward-Prowse Ramirez Lallaba
Osvaldo
 
How many times does it need to be said, Rickie Lambert is not an "out and out" striker. He plays that role part of the time but often drops back to midfield, either on the wings or centrally, to link up play. All our front four change positions all the time, whoever is playing, it's what we do.

So you could argue that our formation fluctuates between 4-4-2 (or 4-2-2-2) and 4-3-3 (or 4-2-3-1) constantly.
 
ChilcoSaint said:
How many times does it need to be said, Rickie Lambert is not an "out and out" striker. He plays that role part of the time but often drops back to midfield, either on the wings or centrally, to link up play. All our front four change positions all the time, whoever is playing, it's what we do.

So you could argue that our formation fluctuates between 4-4-2 (or 4-2-2-2) and 4-3-3 (or 4-2-3-1) constantly.
Click to expand...

Yes, even the media are cottoning on to that fact at last, I see. Absolutely no more Grant Holt or Andy Carroll comparisons needed.
 
ChilcoSaint said:
How many times does it need to be said, Rickie Lambert is not an "out and out" striker. He plays that role part of the time but often drops back to midfield, either on the wings or centrally, to link up play. All our front four change positions all the time, whoever is playing, it's what we do.

So you could argue that our formation fluctuates between 4-4-2 (or 4-2-2-2) and 4-3-3 (or 4-2-3-1) constantly.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. It's a very fluid 4-2-????. Especially with the press. And I would actually say that's the problem with the attack right now. Lambert and Osvaldo are capable of playing in several positions, but haven't quite ironed out who plays what and when.

Rodriguez does not yet have the requisite flexibility. He is really most comfortable running on to long balls, and MP likes to play those diagonal long balls over the top, so it's hard to take Rodriguez out. But he can't rotate to other positions when necessary. Lallana is much better as a hybrid attacking mid/forward, but he's not a natural finisher, and he's not tall or a natural finisher so he can't rotate to the forward position as well.

As for now, I think you can shuffle Davis, Lallana, or Rodriguez in or out of the lineup and things will change slightly as far as who plays where but the end result is going to be the same. Might as well play Davis and Lallana as they offer more on defense. And as we've all said a million times, Ramirez theoretically is the best fit for how MP plays, but he hasn't demonstrated it on the pitch.

Hopefully one of these players will step up for us. I feel like Rodriguez had his run and didn't do enough with it, and right now Lallana is playing well. So it's between Davis, Ramirez, and JWP for the other slot.
 
Oh God. Analysis to paralysis, again. Football is a simple game, made complicated by people who can't help over-elaborating.

Wanyama sits in front of the back four. That way, we won't concede many. The remaining four players, whoever they are, score the goals. Obviously, different individuals have different strengths and weaknesses, but the task remains the same; keep a clean sheet, keep the ball, score goals.

Edit: So simple that I failed to remember how many payers are on the pitch. The remaining 5 players score the goals. 4 if Morgan and Victor pair up in front of the back 4, but I don't think that's the plan this season, which would explain Spiderman's recent struggle to get to grips with the new style of play.

And of course, the full backs get forward when they can, but if they do someone has to be ready to cover. Like Davis for Shaw.

But it's still very simple, until you start analysing it.
 
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