The Champion's League.

[The Mighty Thor]

Last night City won away 0-3 to a team I'd never heard of and the only Pizer I have heard of is John Pizer who was a Jack the Ripper suspect. I suppose if I had have heard of them they'd be a better team than they are losing so heavily at home. The point I'm making is almost every season in the CL we get this huge disparity between the teams in the qualifying stages. One or two teams run away with it and leave two languishing in the depths fathoms down from the main teams.


Why is there this disparity when the teams in the CL are the top teams from their respective nations? Because City won so easily I don't think we can take that as a measure because of what appears to be the dross that they were playing against. When we were in the CL it was noticed that we scored well in the early stages yet the goals then dried up later and the same may well happen to City. I'd be interested in your views on this thread throughout the CL this season if you will. Thanks.

 

[Spurf]

Why is there disparity?

Are you serious?

 

[Boss]

You're always going to have a gulf in class, regardless of how the format is as teams that win their domestic league and gain entry to the champions league, can still be the whipping boys when they face teams from England, Spain, Germany or Italy.

in many ways the group stages are a money making avenue before the real 'european cup' begins.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

So you don't look at the qualifying stages as the real CL then Boss? Okay fair comment. But in the elite competition I for one would expect a nearer standard of teams than what there are.

Sorry if this sounds stupid Spurf.

 

[notsosmartspur]

Its the same every year, the group stages offer a few tasty games, but often, a lot of the groups are decided with 1 or 2 games spare meaning dead rubbers

I see what you're saying though, teams scoring 3,4,6 goals away from home doesn't fit the description 'best competition'. Unless we want to see a smaller and even more elitest competition, which would be a bad day for football imo, I think its the better of the two evils having the comp as it is. At least the money is spread round a bit more, which lesser teams from lesser leagues do need. The odd upset we've seen over the last few are also worth a laugh.

 

[The RDBD]

The "whipping boys" get some financial reward for their pains.
And their supporters get the spectacle of watching their teams play against
quality opponents.

That reward is not guaranteed in the old draw format, when they are likely to
last one round, and at worst the prospect of drawing another such club.
If UEFA guaranteed these clubs a minimum payout equivalent to what they pick up from
the group stage format, then you could revert back to the old format.

But UEFA is hardly about equity and "wealth distribution" nowadays, is it.

 

[Boss]

So you don't look at the qualifying stages as the real CL then Boss? Okay fair comment. But in the elite competition I for one would expect a nearer standard of teams than what there are.

Sorry if this sounds stupid Spurf.

Well the champions league was created for financial reasons and killed off the cup winners cup and UEFA cup, with the europa league generally viewed as an annoyance.

This is the problem with football nowadays, even domestically most fans would rather finish 4th then win the FA Cup. Which is sad situation for the game.

There are too many entrants to the champions league which is why they dump the non qualifers into the europa to give these teams a second chance at European success and attempting to add glamour to the europa league.

All about money, TV deals rather then whats best for the game.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

The disparity is because in other more obscure leagues you get nowhere near as much money for TV rights and gate receipts domestically.

Then you have the seeding system that massively aids the clubs who already receive the most money. Firstly it helps because there is less chance of getting a tough group when the draw is seeded meaning they're more likely to get out of their group and that brings in more CL prize money. Secondly, even if that team did struggle at some stage it takes a few years of struggling for your seeding to change meaning that even if the team might not be as good as before they are still given a great chance to progress in the tournament.

But hey, we shouldn't complain, money's the reason Dutch football has gone down and has allowed us to buy the best players at Ajax despite them being CL regulars.

 

[District Line]

The Champions League has killed off all the leagues across Europe bar the Bundesliga, very much a poisoned chalice.

Just means the teams that are in it will cement their league positions and with initiatives like FFP there will be no serious outside threat irrespective of how much the CL clubs invest. No wonder Abramovich pushed for FFP, he must be laughing. Soon he won't even have to invest a penny and he'll finish no lower than 4th.

Sad but the game is well and truly gone, has been for some time. 4th place only reaffirms this.

 

[Spurm]

You're always going to have a gulf in class, regardless of how the format is as teams that win their domestic league and gain entry to the champions league, can still be the whipping boys when they face teams from England, Spain, Germany or Italy.

in many ways the group stages are a money making avenue before the real 'european cup' begins.

I agree. Any team good enough to qualify for the CL from England with a decent coefficient should waltz through the group stages. If Spurs can do it with no CL experience or pedigree from a pseudo group of death then the others should be able to.
Man City last year was a bit of an exception as their coefficient was poor and they got bum raped by the draw. Arguably they should have still qualified though, i don't think their task was any harder than ours

 

[No Kane No Gain]

The Champions League has killed off all the leagues across Europe bar the Bundesliga, very much a poisoned chalice.

Just means the teams that are in it will cement their league positions and with initiatives like FFP there will be no serious outside threat irrespective of how much the CL clubs invest. No wonder Abramovich pushed for FFP, he must be laughing. Soon he won't even have to invest a penny and he'll finish no lower than 4th.

Sad but the game is well and truly gone, has been for some time. 4th place only reaffirms this.

The only reason the Bundesliga hasn't been killed off by it is because it was already very predictable. But yeah, it has made leagues less exciting as the various competitions(not just CL) have been set up to help the teams with the most money first and foremost. Still there's just enough to keep it interesting for the clubs outside that top echelon of spending and power.

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

The only way to get competition is to limit entry to the top 16 teams in the Deloittes or Forbes rich list (and give wild cards to the others bankrolled by suger daddies). The reality is that the best players play for the richest clubs who pay the best wages. Teams from Scandanavia, eastern & central Europe and the Low Countries would never compete again. Do we want that? No. But the chances are we will still get come the Q-Fs as things stand.

As I've said on another thread, Bayer Leverkusen are a poor team - probably mid-Championship standard, but they are 3rd best in Germany. Their lack of quality should put to be the myth that the Bundesliga is stronger than the PL. They have two strong teams - one of whom has always been a European powerhouse - but there is nothing below.

Aren't Plzen missing a vowel, Rachel?

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Luke, I think perhaps we ought to judge Leverkusen after the second leg.

Didn't Chelsea play Basel last season? Yes notso that's exactly what I was trying to put across but couldn't. This disparity does make a bit of a mockery of the group stages.

Could you elaborate a bit more District. How have they been ruined?

 

[The RDBD]

IMHO the fight for CL slots has raised the bar in the PL.
It doesn't mean the average std of such clubs is close enough to their
counterparts in other leagues, but that is another story.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

As I've said on another thread, Bayer Leverkusen are a poot team - probably mid-Championship standard, but they are 3rd best in Germany. Their lack of quality should put to be the myth that the Bundesliga is stronger than the PL. They have two strong teams - one of whom has always been a European powerhouse - but there is nothing below.

Most of the league is poor, particularly in defending but Leverkusen are a better side than they showed last night. They were a good side last season but they lost two of their best players over the summer. The very fact that Cavrajal and Schurrle moved to Real Madrid and Chelsea, respectively, should show you the kind of quality they had.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

The easiest way to improve the competition, and European football in general, would be to balance out the way that the money's distributed between those involved.
Make the Europa League more rewarding, stop the drop-down and stop sides from making individual deals for televising their games, making it a bulk thing, like the Premier League.
Having the likes of Barca and Real nick all of the Spanish cash is just ridiculous.

 

[Boss]

I agree. Any team good enough to qualify for the CL from England with a decent coefficient should waltz through the group stages. If Spurs can do it with no CL experience or pedigree from a pseudo group of death then the others should be able to.
Man City last year was a bit of an exception as their coefficient was poor and they got bum raped by the draw. Arguably they should have still qualified though, i don't think their task was any harder than ours

Have to be careful with our words as I loved our European nights under Redknapp and dont want to take anything away from us getting into the champions league as I also agree with The RDBD with him saying the bar has been set higher.

But my concerns are about the overall picture of how it has killed competitions and I remember you saying you would rather win the cup then finish 4th, yet because of the champions league, players and fans view 4th as a bigger prize then the FA Cup.

Which I think we all agree is a fairly sad situation for the game as The FA Cup used to be something special to win,

 

[The Mighty Thor]

I get your point Boss,yes you're right it has ruined the FA Cup hasn't it? I never looked at it that way.

 

[Spurm]

Have to be careful with our words as I loved our European nights under Redknapp and dont want to take anything away from us getting into the champions league as I also agree with The RDBD with him saying the bar has been set higher.

But my concerns are about the overall picture of how it has killed competitions and I remember you saying you would rather win the cup then finish 4th, yet because of the champions league, players and fans view 4th as a bigger prize then the FA Cup.

Which I think we all agree is a fairly sad situation for the game as The FA Cup used to be something special to win,

You're not wrong. I would rather win a cup, especially the EL

 

[The RDBD]

Prior to the Champions League, and pre Heysel, the UEFA tournaments were just an
extra piece of spectacle in the season, and a chance for UK supporters/spectators to
see their clubs/leagues pit their wits against the best of their counterparts in Europe.

But since then, it has become what I call the CL piggy trough.
A trough of easy money that clubs can gorge on, and then use to inject into their own
domestic campaigns.

Consider that Spurs got 40 odd million Euros in our CL foray, for nothing more than being
beaten QF participants. Multiply that sort of money by N yrs and you have the Goons.
When you also consider that their wage bill has been 40-50m more than Spurs per season
for some time, it becomes more significant.

That aside, the CL can NEVER devalue the FA Cup. It is the purest of football competitions.