is our tika-taka becoming dated?

[ivoralljack]

I pose this question because, during my recent visit to France, I went out for a drink with some friends one evening, proudly sporting my Swans' T shirt with the legend "Europe Here We Come" emblazoned on it. Almost immediately, it attracted attention and much of the night was spent discussing football with some locals who could speak English and a number of Brits who got drawn into the debate.

Not enough space here to reproduce everything that was said but our style of football was discussed with much admiration (I'm proud to say) but, interestingly, the consensus was that it is living on borrowed time and that it is essential that a more physical/athletic approach has to be combined with the tika-taka for us and similar teams to flourish.

The obvious example was quoted; namely the games between Real Madrid and Barca in the Champions League against their German opponents. As we all know, in both ties the Spanish teams were blown off the park including Ronaldo, Ramos, Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Fabregas et al. The feeling was that the German teams supplemented their own considerable football skills with a strength and athleticism which the more skilful but less robust Spanish teams just couldn't cope with.

Interestingly, this dovetailed very neatly with some comments I heard Glen Hoddle make on a radio interview some time previously. He was talking about Spurs and how encouraged he was about this season's prospects because of the signings they had made to replace Bale. Specifically, he referred to the power, the pace, the strength and the energy the new signings had brought to the team - something that in his opinion the team had lacked in previous seasons and which had prevented them making a credible attempt for the very top.

Now, we all know that Hoddle is a football man through and through, so if someone like him feels that tika-taka on its own is not enough then we have to at least listen and consider his thoughts. So this is what I'm inviting you guys to do. You all know my own thoughts because I've repeated them often enough on this board. I have always felt that you need more than just a team that can play football... when it's allowed to. That team, our team, has to be prepared to muscle up to win the ball when the oppo is not prepared to sit back and watch us weave our pretty patterns. We have to compete; we have to have strength and physicality to go with the football.

I know that we have signed Canas and Shelvey with this in mind but I feel that we need more, that we need to sign/loan in some more physicality in the next transfer window. Of course, I'm well aware that beef with the footballing ability to play our style will cost but I still think we need it. Would welcome your thoughts.

 

[mikraswan]

Good post great reading, I agree with you in many points. You can add Bony, Michu (I see his role with more defensive duties this season) and Amat to the physical backbone (and strenghtening) of the team

 

[trundles left foot]

Ivor, I think our game is evolving as each manager adds their little bit to what the last manager did. I feel that we play much less of a passing game now as we did under Rodgers. There seems to be a little bit more directness about us, coupled with the good passing and the need to keep the ball when required. I still feel that we do still on times try to walk the ball into the net and are still always trying to score the perfect goal.

For all that our game is evolving, whats wrong having an excellent passing game coupled with the power and the pace. That is the direction I think we are heading.

 

[Jokeren1943]

I pose this question because, during my recent visit to France, I went out for a drink with some friends one evening, proudly sporting my Swans' T shirt with the legend "Europe Here We Come" emblazoned on it. Almost immediately, it attracted attention and much of the night was spent discussing football with some locals who could speak English and a number of Brits who got drawn into the debate.

Not enough space here to reproduce everything that was said but our style of football was discussed with much admiration (I'm proud to say) but, interestingly, the consensus was that it is living on borrowed time and that it is essential that a more physical/athletic approach has to be combined with the tika-taka for us and similar teams to flourish.

The obvious example was quoted; namely the games between Real Madrid and Barca in the Champions League against their German opponents. As we all know, in both ties the Spanish teams were blown off the park including Ronaldo, Ramos, Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Fabregas et al. The feeling was that the German teams supplemented their own considerable football skills with a strength and athleticism which the more skilful but less robust Spanish teams just couldn't cope with.

Interestingly, this dovetailed very neatly with some comments I heard Glen Hoddle make on a radio interview some time previously. He was talking about Spurs and how encouraged he was about this season's prospects because of the signings they had made to replace Bale. Specifically, he referred to the power, the pace, the strength and the energy the new signings had brought to the team - something that in his opinion the team had lacked in previous seasons and which had prevented them making a credible attempt for the very top.

Now, we all know that Hoddle is a football man through and through, so if someone like him feels that tika-taka on its own is not enough then we have to at least listen and consider his thoughts. So this is what I'm inviting you guys to do. You all know my own thoughts because I've repeated them often enough on this board. I have always felt that you need more than just a team that can play football... when it's allowed to. That team, our team, has to be prepared to muscle up to win the ball when the oppo is not prepared to sit back and watch us weave our pretty patterns. We have to compete; we have to have strength and physicality to go with the football.

I know that we have signed Canas and Shelvey with this in mind but I feel that we need more, that we need to sign/loan in some more physicality in the next transfer window. Of course, I'm well aware that beef with the footballing ability to play our style will cost but I still think we need it. Would welcome your thoughts.

Fantastic question.

Short answer. Our strongest line-up in the moment (center on the pitch) which bring alot of physical/athletic approach to our team is the following players:

Central Defenders = Williams and Chico.
Central Midfielders = Canas, Shelvey and Michu.
Strikers = Bony

Last season we lacked power on the central (defensive) midfield (we were bullied). But now we have Shelvey and Canas. So i think we both have the necessary power and speed to meet almost any team in the PL.

 

[Matthew Bound Still Lurks]

It's all about striking the right balance , we play to our strengths with players comfortable with the ball and that has served us well for the past 8 years or so ,but the it's like a circle all things come round and we need to subtly change without forgetting what got us to this stage .It's great that we have a philopsphy which the managers buy into because so many times in other clubs when they move on it's like starting at the year zero .Wew have eveolved and will continue to do so because if we don't we will be left behind

 

[Kifflom!]

We've already more or less abandoned tikki takka from what I've seen of us this season.

 

[mikraswan]

We've already more or less abandoned tikki takka from what I've seen of us this season.

Yeah - And Liverpool are implementing it - LOL

 

[Yankee_Jack]

It comes down to tempo. If tiki-taka can be played at a sufficiently high tempo then the opposition, no matter how big, fast and strong they are, will tend to back off and try to contain - otherwise they risk expending energy running around to be where the ball has just left. A good example of this was the Euro final between Manchester United and Barca. Backing off is energy conserving but just plays into the hands of the team playing tiki-taka as it allows that extra bit of space / time to relax and execute.

Playing and maintaining a high tempo for 90 minutes is brutal and requires top athletes to achieve - and is not going to be possible in all positions. So it resolves to how you are going to apply a high level of technique, which is the essential common denominator, and speed of technique and movement. If you lack size as a squad you're better off playing tiki-taka, but at a really high tempo so that your lack of size and strength is not a vulnerability. If you have size and strength, you're going to have to adopt a style more suited to your physical attributes - size and high tempo are not a good match except for shorter periods in a game - there is only so much work any athlete can do over a given period of time given their size and stamina capacity.

Barca are evolving themselves - a generation is aging - Neymar is not tiki-taka born and bred but is highly technical nonetheless and brings a different dimension to the Barca formula - this change is still bedding in.

A more interesting point are the tactical limitations of tiki-taka or are they limitations of the players in the squad. For example, when Chelsea defeated Barca in the Euro semi-finals playing a man down, they conceded possession to Barca, but Barca didn't have the tactical approach to get wide and behind the Chelsea defense (which is what they did on their first goal), but instead tried to walk it through the front door which Chelsea rebuffed time and again.

However you look at it, one thing remains to plague us, the quality of the end product - cross, pass, shot - impacts how effective any style of play or the size / speed / strength elements are. We suffer far too often from a lack of quality in the final piece of execution - our crossing is lamentable at times. This deficit is critical considering that in Michu and Bony we have two very good headers of the ball, which is an attribute we have been lacking in offense for some time.

 

[DragonPhilljack]

I certainly don't think tiki-taki is dead by any means, and Yankee has raised some good points, that are more concerning and that is the quality of our delivery into the box, service to Bony, and some midfield steel, if we could get Cannas and Shelvey up to optimum physical performance, then we should be ok this season, but our speed of technique and movement, as Yankee put it, has been found wanting of late, and this for me, is a training issue?.....

A more interesting point are the tactical limitations of tiki-taka or are they limitations of the players in the squad. -Yankee

I think it is more the limitations of the players performances of late, which has dropped off, there needs to be some back to basics in training, and we know Shelvey's short passing stats are poor (56% success rate) which doesn't help our cause!............

 

[swanseaandproud]

Yeah - And Liverpool are implementing it - LOL

thats why they are top and we are bottom....we have not played any tikki takka since the middle of last season so this question is not relevant to us....the quicker we join liverpool in going back to what we do best the better.....

 

[mikraswan]

thats why they are top and we are bottom....we have not played any tikki takka since the middle of last season so this question is not relevant to us....the quicker we join liverpool in going back to what we do best the better.....

Oh, misread you at first - thought you wanted a FUSION between Swansea and Liverpool, wouldn't make you popular...

 

[stevejack]

Top post ivor. I think Laudrup has made us more prone to try the early ball rather than wait for support a la tika-taka. Against West Brom however we went back to little passing triangles much like early last season and wore the baggies down as they had to chase us, the goals came from quick breaks in between the nice passing moments so I think we are looking to strike a balance between energy and ball retention.

The truth is that is no right way to play. Each style is born of the club identity and the staff. Barca seemed unbeatable a few years ago but a high energy hard pressing game from the Germans overcame on the night. Brazil used to be a team that passed in triangles but after Cruyff and the total football of the 70's they have gradually reached the current game plan of 2 holding mids with very attack minded fullbacks.

We can pass it when we need to and we can attack with more purpose than before. All coming together nicely for me.

Again top post Ivor, really thought provoking.

 

[PGFWhite]

Laudrup has taken us from a one dimensional team to a team that can adapt to different styles of play (although we don't play hoofball!)

Long may the improvement continue

 

[swanselona]

One thing that doesn't really get a mention, which has a big bearing, is that Barcelona don't really have a recognised defensive set-up, I mean, Mascherano has been playing at centre back.

They haven't really replaced Puyol have they.

They have't got a proper centre back pairing, which as we know ourselves is a huge thing to have in a team, that like to get up the pitch.

I honestly don't think they would have lost so badly had they had a decent CB pairing, think it would have been a completely different game.

 

[swanseaandproud]

If we improve !!!!! results are not showing that and i can't see it ever being better than how we played under martinez or rodgers to be honest......sometimes you have to admit that our style of play now is not as good at gaining results to the same degree as we were...

 

[ProjectVRD]

Ivor, I can only say that those people did not watch the Munich-Barca games because Munich passed like demons in both games.

 

[mikraswan]

If we improve !!!!! results are not showing that and i can't see it ever being better than how we played under martinez or rodgers to be honest......sometimes you have to admit that our style of play now is not as good at gaining results to the same degree as we were...

Here Swansea is in the midst of the 6 Matches that I personally would have sold for 5 points, now it looks as 6 points to me. Swansea isn't going to push for top-7. Swansea will push for a decent position in the League, and a big adventure in Europe.
Laudrup said on numerous occasions that he wants a plan A,B and C - tiki-taka is one of those, a rather defensive one as I see MLs strategies. He wants to push forward - not to the side.

I know you're going to mention the fall of last season, but thats not the way Things Work. New season: clean sheet.

 

[ivoralljack]

Ivor, I can only say that those people did not watch the Munich-Barca games because Munich passed like demons in both games.

Indeed they did, Project, and due recognition of it was made when I referred to "their own considerable skills" ie their passing ability etc. The thing is, they also had a high energy, physical game to add to it which is what overwhelmed Barca over both games.

For my part, I think we are well on the way with our present game. Laudrup has taken us away from pure tika-taka by adding a more direct element to our play. The danger for us is in the transition because we do not want to fall between the two stools. I've always loved our passing style and want us to continue it but with more energy and bite. Achieve that and I think we will be a decent force in the Premier League for the foreseeable future.

 

[Matthew Bound Still Lurks]

Barca play to the players strengths and that is close control in tight spaces which drags two or three players to the player receiving the ball, this they do all over the pitch .Eventually the opposition will tire but this still drags them in creating space which creates opportunities to score.We don't have players of that standard but as long as we play at a quicker passing tempo than we can sort of replicate Barca's play ,but Laudrup does bring more dimensions to our play and considering last season was his first managerial job in the PL against quality opposition then not a bad effort.

 

[swanseaandproud]

We need to get back to tikka takka not play less. you don't see the greatest teams in the world abandoning their winning style like we have done. It won't win you every game but will win you more games than the style we are playing now thats for sure...Tikka takka has served us well and we were very good at it and we should take examples from the great teams who keep that way of playing regardless who their manager is...fair play to liverpool they have realized this after abandoning this system a long time ago for the more traditional system that laudrup plays and now employ brendan to get it back and its working a treat...