But your post was questioning 'all the studies' and my response was addressing that.
Let's talk about turning corners.... not get carried away.
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But your post was questioning 'all the studies' and my response was addressing that.
Go away and actually think about what you've posted here.
Firstly the conversation we were having was predicated upon the establishment of OBJECTIVES. Simply put they have to be SMART - otherwise they could be mistaken for aims. Therefore the objective must of necessity be both REALISTIC and ACHIEVABLE.
Until you investigate further you cannot assume the problem lies with the team members in your first scenario. To do so merely adds bias to the investigation. In the second. Have you even considered that it could be YOU as the leader who has not provided sufficient resources with which to achieve the set targets?
Exactly, realistic & achievable - your original point was that your club should aim for the title until it is mathematically out of reach - which from your starting point i.e. a team who've not cracked the top 4 in 4 years & finished 7th last time out, is neither.........
A point that you've ironically backed up with your last line.......as you've not invested the resources required to make that goal a realistic aim......
And ironically your last line confuses aim and objective which is what the original point was about.
It would be nice to close out September with a faultless 6/6 in terms of wins. 18 on the board would represent a great start to the season. Given the games are going to be against Swansea (at the Liberty), hosting the Saints then a trip to the Mackems to revel in their new-found status as off-the-pitch 'entertainers' (Thanks lads, we hated that job under Statler & Waldorf!), its not outside the realms of the possible.
Anyone got odds of 9 points from the next three games?
Anyone got odds of 9 points from the next three games?
BUT You are again mistaken. With the changes that have taken place within the squad and the assumption that the existing players can perform at the same level as they did during the second half of last season then there are sound reasons to suggest that the objective is both realistic and achievable. Particularly when you look at what has happened in the close season to the clubs around us.
Do you actually understand the difference yourself like?
Also, have you got an actual point JB or are you just sniping from the grassy knoll here?
So you think that winning the league is a realistic & achievable target for LFC this season?
Seriously?
Better tell Brendan then mate, as the Shermans have made 4th place & CL football his objective for the season.
Well I made a point on the first page and have kept checking back to see how the thread's developed. Saw your challenge on one of Dave's comments and responded by challenging your interpretation of it which I think is incorrect. Me and Dave don't agree very often but I'm inclined to agree with his musings on this one particular point.
btw when you wrote the word 'aim' what did you mean? I thought you meant aim which is different from objective - your sentence clearly wasn't about objective.
I meant aim, hence the reason I wrote.....aim.
As without the necessary investment then even if it was a stated aim, then it's merely hollow words.
The 'aim' of every team in the league is to win it.
The objectives however, vary from team to team. Reading your posts on here you seem to be confusing aim with objective which is the crux of what Dave has been going on about.
No it isn't.
Crystal Palace don't have winning the PL as a stated aim & barring a City sized lotto win, never will.
An aim without a plan is merely a fantasy.
I think it's you that's got the wrong end of this particular stick.
Crystal Palace's aim is to win the league - their objectives are something else, specific to their club. An example could be a short term objective to survive the PL - long term objective to get higher and higher up the division.
Winning the league is indeed a fantasy, as you rightly say, for all those teams competing to win it who don't have the wherewithall to do so. We all know that only a handful of teams do have what is needed to win it so for them it's not a fantasy but the aim for every team is the same, to win it, otherwise what are they competing for?
No it simply isn't an aim of theirs at all, you've ended up a million miles from reality trying to argue a pedantic point here JB.
The aim or goal is the end point - the objective is how you intend getting there. Crystal Palace's aim is to retain their PL status, with their objective being to finish 17th or higher. There's no way of God's Earth that their aim is to win the thing.
Companies don't have fantasy aims mate, that's the preserve of Lottery players & dreamers.......
Teams compete in a competition to win it. A league is a competition. It's blatantly obvious that they all can't win but that is always the ultimate aim. Otherwise why participate. A league is formed in any sport and the aim of every team is to come top. We've come so far away from that simple directive with all the money being injected into the sport that teams are no longer on an even footing with an equal chance of winning it but the aim hasn't changed, just the chances for some have become more remote?
Lots of companies have fantasy aims which is why so many fail.
Lots of companies have fantasy aims which is why so many fail.
Please let's not get into some pedantic debate about the differences between Aims, Objectives and Tactics as it's going to get us nowhere. It's sad to say (and this isn't a pop at Tobes) there are 2 many British Executives and Senior Managers who need to know the difference and clearly don't. Worse still there is a core that merely use Objectives as a stick with which to beat their workforce - they refer to themselves as Drivers but are in fact really Bullies. If there's one managerial reason why UK industry as a whole has failed its the inability to plan, communicate the plan and implement a plan - let's not talk about the review process or we'll all end up crying!
Now I don't care what the bookies expect or what the media project. Rodgers is one of the managers who can set out with the objective of wining every match. Is he going to succeed in that - probably not but he does know already that the closer he gets to achieving that objective then the closer he will be towards achieving the clubs seasonal objective of winning the title. You can be very sure that he's not going to go into any game this season looking to lose. So far his win percentage rates higher than any other manager in the country.
The club have invested in the squad with which they are seeking to achieve their objectives. At this point neither they or anybody-else know if that investment is sufficient. But then neither does any other club in the league have that knowledge about themselves or their opponents. So I will stick to my assertion that I do feel we have a chance of winning the league. We'll have to wait until June 2014 to see if I'm right (or some point before that if it becomes mathematically impossible for us to do so).
Not all objectives are achieved. It can be argued that if they were then the objectives themselves were not sufficiently challenging. Winning the league is certainly that but 4th spot may be a sweet consolation.
Now I don't care what the bookies expect or what the media project. Rodgers is one of the managers who can set out with the objective of wining every match. Is he going to succeed in that - probably not but he does know already that the closer he gets to achieving that objective then the closer he will be towards achieving the clubs seasonal objective of winning the title. You can be very sure that he's not going to go into any game this season looking to lose. So far his win percentage rates higher than any other manager in the country.
The club have invested in the squad with which they are seeking to achieve their objectives. At this point neither they or anybody-else know if that investment is sufficient. But then neither does any other club in the league have that knowledge about themselves or their opponents. So I will stick to my assertion that I do feel we have a chance of winning the league. We'll have to wait until June 2014 to see if I'm right (or some point before that if it becomes mathematically impossible for us to do so).
Not all objectives are achieved. It can be argued that if they were then the objectives themselves were not sufficiently challenging. Winning the league is certainly that but 4th spot may be a sweet consolation.
ok so here's the thing. i kind of read this earlier and see that its still going on.
strategy is what someone makes of it.
so.... there's right in everyone's statement.
example would be a mission statement:
this is supposed to state why an organisation exists... 3 parts. Vision... leads to Strategy... leads to objectives or specific deliverables.
So there is a big difference between vision and objectives. this is where Fordeck is dead right.
So you could take crystal palace and write a mission statement for them
Mission: To develop a world class football club structure while enabling sustainable growth
Strategy: Develop and sustain a competitive premier league club while refocusing resources on stadium, training and youth facilities to enable growth in these key strategic areas
Objectives:
1. Gain premier league status by: 20XX
2. Develop a team capable of sustaining premier league stuts as a cost of no more than XX
3. Gain planning permission and put in place financing for a stadium of X capacity by end of 20XX
4. Invest in training and youth facility
just for exmaple..... now both Tobes and JB are right.... as this is all about perception. The mission i wrote is probably ambitious but it does require someone to aim high doesn't it.... however the objective is to survive in the prem.
write the same document for chelsea or utd and it would have as objectives to win specific titles... no question.
All Fordeck said was the aim or goal should be to win things.... so everyone is merely in a pissing contest for the sake of it at this point.... in my opinion.
start point... look to the others point of view and try to move to consensus. if consensus is not acceptable fine.... it is after all just opinion.
strategy is what someone makes of it.
so.... there's right in everyone's statement.
example would be a mission statement:
this is supposed to state why an organisation exists... 3 parts. Vision... leads to Strategy... leads to objectives or specific deliverables.
So there is a big difference between vision and objectives. this is where Fordeck is dead right.
So you could take crystal palace and write a mission statement for them
Mission: To develop a world class football club structure while enabling sustainable growth
Strategy: Develop and sustain a competitive premier league club while refocusing resources on stadium, training and youth facilities to enable growth in these key strategic areas
Objectives:
1. Gain premier league status by: 20XX
2. Develop a team capable of sustaining premier league stuts as a cost of no more than XX
3. Gain planning permission and put in place financing for a stadium of X capacity by end of 20XX
4. Invest in training and youth facility
just for exmaple..... now both Tobes and JB are right.... as this is all about perception. The mission i wrote is probably ambitious but it does require someone to aim high doesn't it.... however the objective is to survive in the prem.
write the same document for chelsea or utd and it would have as objectives to win specific titles... no question.
All Fordeck said was the aim or goal should be to win things.... so everyone is merely in a pissing contest for the sake of it at this point.... in my opinion.
start point... look to the others point of view and try to move to consensus. if consensus is not acceptable fine.... it is after all just opinion.
