Who would benefit more?

[chelsea - over 100 years of history]

That's very true Drogs. The last time a manager kept a club at the top for almost that long was Shankly at Liverpool. And look how badly they went down the ****ter when they replaced him with a 50 odd year old with no top level managerial experience and no trophies to his name.

Oh, hang on...

You've convinced me. It's a wonder any succesful managers ever get jobs with this logic.

 

[Hoddle is a god]

That's very true Drogs. The last time a manager kept a club at the top for almost that long was Shankly at Liverpool. And look how badly they went down the ****ter when they replaced him with a 50 odd year old with no top level managerial experience and no trophies to his name.

Oh, hang on...

English football was in a very different place when Paisley took over at 'Pool to where it is today. The English game was a hard physical game, where skill and tactics counted for far less than they do today. The kinds of tackles that could be made on players when Paisley would have been giving his dressing-room talks would be looked upon as out-and-out thuggery in today's game. With the skill levels and the tactical sophistication has come a whole raft of change. I'm not sure how successful Paisley would be in today's game.

 

[Swarbs]

You've convinced me. It's a wonder any succesful managers ever get jobs with this logic.

It is. When you consider how previously successful managers like Scolari and AVB flop at Chelsea, and Mancini was decidedly average at City, you wonder why anyone would trust a manager's CV again. Let's not even mention Rafa...

Alternatively, it could just be that not all managers are suited to all clubs. Just like spending £50m on an allegedly top class striker, you never know whether you've backed the right horse until they make it over the finish line at the end of the season.

English football was in a very different place when Paisley took over at 'Pool to where it is today. The English game was a hard physical game, where skill and tactics counted for far less than they do today. The kinds of tackles that could be made on players when Paisley would have been giving his dressing-room talks would be looked upon and out-and-out thuggery in today's game. With the skill levels and the tactical sophistication has come a whole raft of change. I'm not sure how successful Paisley would be in today's game.

True, but ultimately the principle is still the same. There's no guarantee that a top manager with a hatful of trophies and proven success at the highest level like, say, Juande Ramos, will be a success when he moves to another club. Just the same way there is no guarantee that an unknown manager with no record of success like, say, Roberto Di Matteo, won't win the big prizes when given the opportunity.

Moyes could succeed at Utd or he could fail, but ultimately anyone trying to make a prediction about that at the moment is just pissing into the wind.

 

[Drogs]

That's very true Drogs. The last time a manager kept a club at the top for almost that long was Shankly at Liverpool. And look how badly they went down the ****ter when they replaced him with a 50 odd year old with no top level managerial experience and no trophies to his name.

Oh, hang on...

Was just pointing out the difference between the things he mentioned...

Now following your scenario, what happened after Busby

 

[Swarbs]

Was just pointing out the difference between the things he mentioned...

Now following your scenario, what happened after Busby

I think you'll find nothing happened after Busby. Football was cancelled until 1992.

True story bro

 

[Drogs]

I think you'll find nothing happened after Busby. Football was cancelled until 1992.

True story bro

 

[Constcrepe]

And????

There's a phrase that starts something like 'one swallow...'

These United fans are getting more and more defensive by the day. But then look who they hired and look at their pre season form. I'd be worried to; especially if I only supported my club due to their constant success up till now.

The fact that you have made no mention of Klopp's previous record before Dortmund suggests you ignored it or simply don't know it. He managed Mainz 05 from 2001-08. Won them no trophies and managed to get them relegated. Could not get them promotion so decided to resign instead.

Hardly a great CV. Yet look at him now. Doesn't mean Moyes will succeed at Utd but failing to fill trophy cabinet means zero when it comes to the future. I find it incredible you criticise Moyes for his past record and yet ignore the example of Klopp. Also pre-season Since when does a far east tour mean anything apart from money?

 

[Drogs]

The fact that you have made no mention of Klopp's previous record before Dortmund suggests you ignored it or simply don't know it. He managed Mainz 05 from 2001-08. Won them no trophies and managed to get them relegated. Could not get them promotion so decided to resign instead.

Hardly a great CV. Yet look at him now. Doesn't mean Moyes will succeed at Utd but failing to fill trophy cabinet means zero when it comes to the future. I find it incredible you criticise Moyes for his past record and yet ignore the example of Klopp. Also pre-season Since when does a far east tour mean anything apart from money?

Come on the situations are totally different, Dortmund were in the **** when he took over and he hadn't just taken over from one of if not the greatest manager of all time who had been there for over 25 years. Klopp has nowhere near the amount of pressure or expectation Moyes will. That being said, I actually rate Moyes and think he will do a good job if given time.

 

[chelsea - over 100 years of history]

It is. When you consider how previously successful managers like Scolari and AVB flop at Chelsea, and Mancini was decidedly average at City, you wonder why anyone would trust a manager's CV again. Let's not even mention Rafa...

Alternatively, it could just be that not all managers are suited to all clubs. Just like spending £50m on an allegedly top class striker, you never know whether you've backed the right horse until they make it over the finish line at the end of the season.



True, but ultimately the principle is still the same. There's no guarantee that a top manager with a hatful of trophies and proven success at the highest level like, say, Juande Ramos, will be a success when he moves to another club. Just the same way there is no guarantee that an unknown manager with no record of success like, say, Roberto Di Matteo, won't win the big prizes when given the opportunity.

Moyes could succeed at Utd or he could fail, but ultimately anyone trying to make a prediction about that at the moment is just pissing into the wind.

To a point but it is surely fair to say that a truely good manager who is proven will generally get some form of success where ever he goes. Jose has won stuff everywhere, Ancelotti likewise, Capello etc. So whilst there are always exceptions, if you want success, surely better to try it with a proven winner than someone who has won nothing yet?

As for your examples: -

Scolari was a world cup winner but had been out of the club management game for a long while when he came to us and to be fair, was only given a few months.
AVB had a brilliant season at Porto but hardly a succesul manager over any sustained period of time and also very very young. Also to be fair, was only given a few months.
Mancini I've never rated and he did about as well as could be expected at City. He 'won' most of the trophies he did in Italy due to the scandal over there at the time.

Like you say, Moyes might succeed or he could fail but I'd rather bet on a proven winner than not.

 

[chelsea - over 100 years of history]

The fact that you have made no mention of Klopp's previous record before Dortmund suggests you ignored it or simply don't know it. He managed Mainz 05 from 2001-08. Won them no trophies and managed to get them relegated. Could not get them promotion so decided to resign instead.

Hardly a great CV. Yet look at him now. Doesn't mean Moyes will succeed at Utd but failing to fill trophy cabinet means zero when it comes to the future. I find it incredible you criticise Moyes for his past record and yet ignore the example of Klopp. Also pre-season Since when does a far east tour mean anything apart from money?

I ignored it because it wasn't relevant. As I said (which you ignored) one swallow doesn't make a summer. I could list countless examples of 'unsucessful' managers getting jobs and remaining unsucessful. Mark Hughes would be a good example at City for instance.

Just because you can do a google search of Klopp's history doesn't get away from the fact you have replaced the most successful manager in the history of british football with a guy whose biggest achievement is 4th place and losing a cup final yet you are trying to convince us all it's all fine because a guy in germany did better than expected for a lesser club with nowhere near the same level of expectation.

Klopp also benefitted from a brilliant batch of players coming through the Dortmund ranks. United haven't produced a world class player in about 20 years.

 

[District Line]

The United fans have arrogantly dismissed the influence that the manager has on the narrow margins in professional football. They seem to believe that United finishing top of the league all those years had nothing whatsoever to do with Fergie, and that they could put any old muppet in charge (as they have done) and the results will be the same. It is very similar to the kind of arrogance that the Mousers demonstrated in the days prior to the meltdown at 'Pool.

Whilst Moyes is in charge, no player of any real note will want to go to United. Indeed, the players of note that United currently possess will all gradually leave.

I cannot see United go anywhere other than backwards.

Completely agree

Chelsea lost the fear factor once Mourinho left. We still won trophies in the gap between, but we lost that edge of arrogance and invincibility in our play.

Ronaldo leaving hammered one nail in the coffin, Fergie leaving was the final.

Am I willing to write United off completely? No

Do I believe they will be easier to beat under Moyes? Absolutely
Do I believe they are a less attractive option for star players to join under Moyes? Only a fool would deny it.

I would be amazed if Moyes managed to finish above Chelsea AND City this coming season, all things considered even for Fergie it would have proved a tough challenge.

 

[chelsea - over 100 years of history]

Completely agree

Chelsea lost the fear factor once Mourinho left. We still won trophies in the gap between, but we lost that edge of arrogance and invincibility in our play.

Ronaldo leaving hammered one nail in the coffin, Fergie leaving was the final.

Am I willing to write United off completely? No

Do I believe they will be easier to beat under Moyes? Absolutely
Do I believe they are a less attractive option for star players to join under Moyes? Only a fool would deny it.

I would be amazed if Moyes managed to finish above Chelsea AND City this coming season, all things considered even for Fergie it would have proved a tough challenge.

100%

The main difference between City, United and Chelsea last year was the managers situation. We sacked a guy mid season and then had all the fans issues with Rafa, Mancini lost the dressing room at City etc. United had Fergie. In the games between us and United last year we proved we were better than the points difference between us.

Now we have Jose, they have Moyes....game on.

 

[Swarbs]

To a point but it is surely fair to say that a truely good manager who is proven will generally get some form of success where ever he goes. Jose has won stuff everywhere, Ancelotti likewise, Capello etc. So whilst there are always exceptions, if you want success, surely better to try it with a proven winner than someone who has won nothing yet?

As for your examples: -

Scolari was a world cup winner but had been out of the club management game for a long while when he came to us and to be fair, was only given a few months.
AVB had a brilliant season at Porto but hardly a succesul manager over any sustained period of time and also very very young. Also to be fair, was only given a few months.
Mancini I've never rated and he did about as well as could be expected at City. He 'won' most of the trophies he did in Italy due to the scandal over there at the time.

Like you say, Moyes might succeed or he could fail but I'd rather bet on a proven winner than not.

Wouldn't say Ancelotti and Capello have been successful everywhere - Ancelotti was only moderately successful at Milan with one league title in six seasons, and Capello won nothing with Milan, Roma and Juve from 97-2006, excluding the fixed titles. Mourinho's the main exception imo, and even he wasn't a big success at Real.

And you could just as easily look at managers who've won nothing but turned out to be massive successes. Guardiola at Barca, SAF at Aberdeen, Mourinho at Porto, every proven success has to start somewhere.

 

[Hoddle is a god]

Completely agree

Chelsea lost the fear factor once Mourinho left. We still won trophies in the gap between, but we lost that edge of arrogance and invincibility in our play.

Ronaldo leaving hammered one nail in the coffin, Fergie leaving was the final.

Am I willing to write United off completely? No

Do I believe they will be easier to beat under Moyes? Absolutely
Do I believe they are a less attractive option for star players to join under Moyes? Only a fool would deny it.

I would be amazed if Moyes managed to finish above Chelsea AND City this coming season, all things considered even for Fergie it would have proved a tough challenge.

Exactly, DL.

 

[Constcrepe]

And you could just as easily look at managers who've won nothing but turned out to be massive successes. Guardiola at Barca, SAF at Aberdeen, Mourinho at Porto, every proven success has to start somewhere.

Correct.

 

[CFC: Champs £launderx17]

That's very true Drogs. The last time a manager kept a club at the top for almost that long was Shankly at Liverpool. And look how badly they went down the ****ter when they replaced him with a 50 odd year old with no top level managerial experience and no trophies to his name.

Oh, hang on...

Oh hang on. What happened after busby then?

 

[CFC: Champs £launderx17]

The fact that you have made no mention of Klopp's previous record before Dortmund suggests you ignored it or simply don't know it. He managed Mainz 05 from 2001-08. Won them no trophies and managed to get them relegated. Could not get them promotion so decided to resign instead.

Hardly a great CV. Yet look at him now. Doesn't mean Moyes will succeed at Utd but failing to fill trophy cabinet means zero when it comes to the future. I find it incredible you criticise Moyes for his past record and yet ignore the example of Klopp. Also pre-season Since when does a far east tour mean anything apart from money?

So because klopp failed at Mainz another manager at a different club in another country ten years later will be a success. Great logic

 

[CFC: Champs £launderx17]

Wouldn't say Ancelotti and Capello have been successful everywhere - Ancelotti was only moderately successful at Milan with one league title in six seasons, and Capello won nothing with Milan, Roma and Juve from 97-2006, excluding the fixed titles. Mourinho's the main exception imo, and even he wasn't a big success at Real.

And you could just as easily look at managers who've won nothing but turned out to be massive successes. Guardiola at Barca, SAF at Aberdeen, Mourinho at Porto, every proven success has to start somewhere.

I must have missed something,
Did those managers have 10 years of mediocrity behind them before they took a big job?