'One more year'

[Lenny38]

I see Hessy thinks he would of got us promoted if he was given 'one more year', citing extra money being available due to us selling 2/3 players and the sell on clause in the Jarvis contract. This is sour grapes as far as I'm concerned he built a massive squad and was largely ineffective, I didn't see anything last season that gave me any confidence that we would get promoted with Hessy.

MA got the best out of the squad, Hessy couldn't.

 

[brb]

This thread has sort of already been done but while we are here...

I will accept without doubt as far has achievements go Martin Allen was the better manager. He had the bite that Hessy lacked to see us over that winning line.

However, Hessy had something that I just feel MA does not and that is an eye for future young talent, the latter appearing to rely on the bigger experienced boys. Nothing wrong in that in principle of short term achievement but something we might pay the price for in distant future.

So how do we overcome the problem that I highlight and how can we test MA to his full potential. Well that is quite simple in that rather than giving managers in the region of two year contracts, offer and make them commit to more. What have we got to lose if we rate him that good. I could use a certain Premier League side a seven year contract as an example.

If MAdDog continued that achievement throughout that period of time then it would certainly quash any negatives that I feel his style brings (long term). The problem with supporters in the modern game, we live in an era where the likes of Mancini can be deemed great in one moment but 12 months later sacked. The sad face of football and glory hunters / plastics.

Using that same Premier Team as an example, do they play with passion, for the badge and their colours or do they just play for the money. Bear with me on this...did anyone notice the rejection of scarves from players at the cup final...

Take the 11,500 or whatever the attendance was against AFC Wimbledon, then look back to Hessy's reign on a cold, wet Tuesday night in November when he fielded a very young team that turned in the performance of the season. How many turned up for that game? Just over 3,000. So while MA may be appeasing the paying customers, he has some way still to go to appease hard core supporters such as myself long term. That's not taking away achievements this season, it is being consistent in what I believe. I'm certainly not complaining after our 49 year wait.

MA has the eye and approach to take a title, Hessy has the eye for young talent such as Gazza who can bring the club financial fortune. Trouble is which is the main priority in the survival of our club, long term?

Do we honestly believe we will ever fill a 18,000 new build stadium, game on game at home. I believe not.

When MA walks you can pretty much guarantee that many will follow him out of the door. So where will that leave us, I guess as long has he maintains us in L1 no one will really care. I suppose the true measure in the cost of all this is where will we be in three years time, back in League Two or in the Championship. I pretty much guess...[edit] - if we are still maintaining our L1 position in three years time, was MA really any better than Hessy, other than valuable piece of silverware, which was never my main priority.

I suggest we let the passing of time be the true measure.

 

[Gills79]

MA has already achieved far more than Hessy in one season. Poor form from Hessy in my opinion, almost belittling Allen's achievements. I have never seen a fitter or better drilled Gillingham side playing in this division. Hessy's teams were never up to this standard and his ability to unearth young players is also overstated. We were just lucky that Southampton soaked up all the hype surrounding Gazza. Gazza was good and a big fans favourite but was able to produce big blunders as well as world class saves (as in that Hereford game). Don't forget that it took Martin Allen to get the best out of Matt Fish and Joe Martin too. It is so easy for Hess to make these comments as they will never be proved one way or another.

It's not just about Allen versus Hess either. If Allen walks away we get another manager and new adventure starts

 

[brb]

It's not just about Allen versus Hess either. If Allen walks away we get another manager and new adventure starts

Surely that is the problem long term. MA always has that get out clause. Hence we are not building for the future but just short term custom, note in my last post I used the word customer not supporter. When this all goes tits up, I welcome anyone to come and sit next to me on the next cold Tuesday November evening, when most of those that thought MA was leading the way forward are warmly snugged up in their duvet. We have to stop this mentality of excusing swapping one manager for another, otherwise we are no better then Prem supporters or the influence of media as I truly see it.

MA needs to commit his future to us (that will not happen), then I might believe.

 

[Gills79]

Surely that is the problem long term. MA always has that get out clause. Hence we are not building for the future but just short term custom, note in my last post I used the word customer not supporter. When this all goes tits up, I welcome anyone to come and sit next to me on the next cold Tuesday November evening, when most of those that thought MA was leading the way forward are warmly snugged up in their duvet. We have to stop this mentality of excusing swapping one manager for another, otherwise we are no better then Prem supporters or the influence of media as I truly see it.

MA needs to commit his future to us (that will not happen), then I might believe.

I am there on cold Tuesday nights like many others.

Building for the long term on the playing side rarely exists anymore. The average lifespan for a league two manager is only 2 years dropping to less than 18 months in league one and the championship.
When Allen departs he will be replaced - It may go wrong but it may equally go right. I'll still be there on those cold winter Tuesdays too!

 

[brb]

Gills79 - sadly though it is not like many others. Probably lucky if it is one third of what we saw in the last few games. True what you say about manager contracts but it does not make it right though. I just have a different outlook of expectation from the game that greatly differs to many.

 

[Lenny38]

This thread has sort of already been done but while we are here...

I will accept without doubt as far has achievements go Martin Allen was the better manager. He had the bite that Hessy lacked to see us over that winning line.

However, Hessy had something that I just feel MA does not and that is an eye for future young talent, the latter appearing to rely on the bigger experienced boys. Nothing wrong in that in principle of short term achievement but something we might pay the price for in distant future.

So how do we overcome the problem that I highlight and how can we test MA to his full potential. Well that is quite simple in that rather than giving managers in the region of two year contracts, offer and make them commit to more. What have we got to lose if we rate him that good. I could use a certain Premier League side a seven year contract as an example.

If MAdDog continued that achievement throughout that period of time then it would certainly quash any negatives that I feel his style brings (long term). The problem with supporters in the modern game, we live in an era where the likes of Mancini can be deemed great in one moment but 12 months later sacked. The sad face of football and glory hunters / plastics.

Using that same Premier Team as an example, do they play with passion, for the badge and their colours or do they just play for the money. Bear with me on this...did anyone notice the rejection of scarves from players at the cup final...

Take the 11,500 or whatever the attendance was against AFC Wimbledon, then look back to Hessy's reign on a cold, wet Tuesday night in November when he fielded a very young team that turned in the performance of the season. How many turned up for that game? Just over 3,000. So while MA may be appeasing the paying customers, he has some way still to go to appease hard core supporters such as myself long term. That's not taking away achievements this season, it is being consistent in what I believe. I'm certainly not complaining after our 49 year wait.

MA has the eye and approach to take a title, Hessy has the eye for young talent such as Gazza who can bring the club financial fortune. Trouble is which is the main priority in the survival of our club, long term?

Do we honestly believe we will ever fill a 18,000 new build stadium, game on game at home. I believe not.

When MA walks you can pretty much guarantee that many will follow him out of the door. So where will that leave us, I guess as long has he maintains us in L1 no one will really care. I suppose the true measure in the cost of all this is where will we be in three years time, back in League Two or in the Championship. I pretty much guess...[edit] - if we are still maintaining our L1 position in three years time, was MA really any better than Hessy, other than valuable piece of silverware, which was never my main priority.

I suggest we let the passing of time be the true measure.

Gills79 - speaks a lot of sense.
brb - doesnt!!! winning the league was never your priority??? Have you lost the plot??

 

[alwaysright]

brb - I am going to play Devil's advocate and suggest that if you had differently worded a small section of your initial reply in this thread,( 2nd to last line ), you may have received a better acceptance of it by Lenny38.
You have every right to your opinion that winning the league was not your main priority - but surely you would have to agree that all Gills fans expected / demanded that we either got promotion, or at very least, reached the play-offs ?....I accept most of everything else you say.
Sadly football has evolved whereby success is demanded by many 'fans'. You quote the situation at Man City. Obviously the directors and those pumping money into the team demand a better return.... I suppose it depends on what they value their 'investment.'
When Gills were in the Championships , ( having some success ) we had average attendances approaching 9000. This fell steadily to 5143 during 2011/12. Whilst we were 'failing' our fans stayed away. The point of this is that, even at Gillingham it is obvious that fans want/ demand success otherwise they can't be bothered - that is the nature of modern day football fans.
Sadly television can use its' wonderful technology to provide 'excitement' from even the dullest of 0-0 games. The 'genuine' supporter, on a freezing cold Tuesday night, in the lower leagues will not have such luxuries & comfort for their entertainment - it will take a 'winning' team to tempt the more fickle 'fans' to venture away from their armchairs.

 

[grumpygit]

Why do some people think posting vitriol against one of the best servants this club has ever had makes them look good.

Hess, MA, and even Scally have admitted that the money wasn't there for a backroom staff during the Hess years, but wait, you know better.
Fish was a young player in his first year of league football, of course he was going to get better.
Gazza was even younger in a position that normally reaches peak performance about 28 years old, yes he made mistakes but have you forgotten how many times he saved our bacon.
And what about Jack Payne Hess certainly got the best out of him, can MA say the same.
Hess completed 2 years of a 3 year plan and stabilised the club for the first time in years, you might not think 8th place is good but it's better than the poor yoyo performances of recent years.
MA is now the manager and will get my full support, Hess is a legend and will continue to get my full gratitude and respect for all he has achieved as part of my club.

 

[itstimupnorth]

However, Hessy had something that I just feel MA does not and that is an eye for future young talent, the latter appearing to rely on the bigger experienced boys. Nothing wrong in that in principle of short term achievement but something we might pay the price for in distant future.

As you know I generally share your opinion of the non-youth policy, but I have to admit that as the season developed more younger players did manage to secure their places on a fairly regular basis. Although I have expressed disappointment at the departure of some of Hessy's young guns - Essam, Payne and Evans in particular, the emergence of Fish, Allen jr., and Dack, and the blossoming of Joe Martin have compensated somewhat for that. I still have doubts about Callum Davies, but at 20 he's still very young for a central defender and could learn from Leon Legge.

And whilst some of the development squad players who played against Burton were a bit out of their depth, others showed that they were deserving of further opportunities. However having those players and giving them the opportunities are different matters.

It is a matter of balance of youth and experience, and on the basis of last season I now have slightly more confidence in MA's ability to get the right blend, than Hessy who in 2011-12 only started to play the younger players when hope of even a place in play-offs was gone, despite some consistently very poor displays by the established players.

 

[Lenny38]

Why do some people think posting vitriol against one of the best servants this club has ever had makes them look good.

Hess, MA, and even Scally have admitted that the money wasn't there for a backroom staff during the Hess years, but wait, you know better.
Fish was a young player in his first year of league football, of course he was going to get better.
Gazza was even younger in a position that normally reaches peak performance about 28 years old, yes he made mistakes but have you forgotten how many times he saved our bacon.
And what about Jack Payne Hess certainly got the best out of him, can MA say the same.
Hess completed 2 years of a 3 year plan and stabilised the club for the first time in years, you might not think 8th place is good but it's better than the poor yoyo performances of recent years.
MA is now the manager and will get my full support, Hess is a legend and will continue to get my full gratitude and respect for all he has achieved as part of my club.

Oh come on let's not start getting sentimental, Hess 3 year plan wasn't going anywhere. His comments show a poor understanding of his own ability and we are better off without him.

 

[gfc1234]

no ex manager should ever come back..we wasted 2 years with hess in charge

 

[brb]

Gills79 - speaks a lot of sense.
brb - doesnt!!! winning the league was never your priority??? Have you lost the plot??

I have also seen alwaysright's point in part agreement with me except slight wording.

However, I reiterate my point and stand by it 100%. Winning the league (piece of silverware) was NEVER my MAIN priority.

I just don't get it, why should that wording need any expansion?

So hands up all the Gills fans that at the beginning of the season had the silverware as their main priority. Promotion may have been an expectation but surely that does not require expansion on my original statement, which stands at which it is and tbh I would never have thought required explanation.

Sorry but if I'm being expected to join some happy clappy club for MA then it is not going to happen. I respect and praise him for what he has achieved, no more no less.

There I've said it! In a word that alwaysright will understand I'm beeling that my statement cannot be seen for the context it was meant - lol

 

[bristol407]

What a mean spirited, insulting and pointless thread this is. It brings shame on the club and supporters to climb on this bandwagon. Hessy is far and away the best servant the club has ever had, best player by a mile, and his achievement of keeping the club in the Championship for 5 seasons is one of the most notable managerial overachievements since Brian Clough packed it in. Just what do people think they achieve by denigrating the bloke.
As for the last 3 seasons it is truly comparing chalk and cheese to try and reach any conclusion. What would Allen have done with a squad of cripples on league 1 contracts, no backroom resources and the highest paid squad member a person named McCammon? What would Hessy have done with a decent backroom team, the best financial situation for years and the deadwood all cleared away? All hypothetical of course and pointless speculation.
MA has done ok doing a job made easy for him. Good luck to him and if he manages to move from 9 jobs in 9 years to 9 jobs in 15 years he may warrant real respect. at present he has a long way to go, but work in progress is good.
As for Hessy every Gills fan owes him an immense debt of gratitude and should wish him the best for the future. It will be interesting to see where he is in 5 years.
Lenny, hang your head in shame.

 

[brb]

What a mean spirited, insulting and pointless thread this is. It brings shame on the club and supporters to climb on this bandwagon. Hessy is far and away the best servant the club has ever had, best player by a mile, and his achievement of keeping the club in the Championship for 5 seasons is one of the most notable managerial overachievements since Brian Clough packed it in. Just what do people think they achieve by denigrating the bloke.
As for the last 3 seasons it is truly comparing chalk and cheese to try and reach any conclusion. What would Allen have done with a squad of cripples on league 1 contracts, no backroom resources and the highest paid squad member a person named McCammon? What would Hessy have done with a decent backroom team, the best financial situation for years and the deadwood all cleared away? All hypothetical of course and pointless speculation.
MA has done ok doing a job made easy for him. Good luck to him and if he manages to move from 9 jobs in 9 years to 9 jobs in 15 years he may warrant real respect. at present he has a long way to go, but work in progress is good.
As for Hessy every Gills fan owes him an immense debt of gratitude and should wish him the best for the future. It will be interesting to see where he is in 5 years.
Lenny, hang your head in shame.

You restored my faith, I was becoming self conscious and beginning to think it was me blinkered.

 

[BSG]

I think there are two different things being discussed here; firstly I think there is no doubt that Hess is a club legend. As Bristol has rightly mention the club owes alot to Hess over the last couple of decades, I doubt many fans woild deny that, but that is the past, and that should not rose tint our vision over the recent management spell.

In my opinion it was right that Hessy moved on last season, I feel that he took the club as far as he could this time around and we needed some fresh ideas to push the club to the next level. Many feel that two seventh places was not good enough when the mission statement was "Anything but promotion is a failure", clearly Mr Scally included. Manybe Hess was a victim of the hype but unfortunately that is football and if you don't like the rules don't play the game. In the same way that the past shouldn't rose tint the present, we should not let the last two less successful season tarnish the past.

 

[The Gills PegLeg]

I think Hess standing aside was the right decision, I don't know what Hess would have done this season whether he had the resources or not so I won't comment on that. I will say however that his major downfall was the fitness of the players. You can say he didn't have the funds for a fitness coach, how truthful that is I don't know, however I can rewind the clock back to his first spell. We were a stable mid tabled team in the Division One/Championship with quality players. Our revenues would have been higher then due to more people through the gates and all the benefits that comes with it etc. In the 2003/04 season I think we suffered from 17 players being injured at the same point, most of which were due to calf or hamstring strains. Although the club was hardly rolling in it, we would have had enough money for a fitness coach of which he did not invest in. I don't think Hess is a bad manager, nearly three promotions on the trot with Dover is by no way an easy task. Also his eye for a player is outstanding and with products such as Matt Jarvis, Nyron Nosworthy, Andrew Crofts and Paulo Gazzaniga all going to play in the Premier League helps prove this. I just don't think he had the killer instinct and perhaps the heart to drop certain players for the good of the team.

The differences between Martin and Hess were that MA knew the importance of keeping a fit squad, especially after our last season. He also managed to keep the side motivated and gave the players more freedom in the dressing room as opposed to outside but yet still gained the respect from the players as the manager. I think Hess tried to hard to still be one of "the lads" that he felt afraid to drop certain players (Lawrence at Right Back etc). I felt that the Director of Football role was ideal for Hess due to his talent spotting skills, however I feel he will have learnt some important lessons from MA to become a good manager.

To answer the question do I think it is right for Hess to become a manager elsewhere then I would reluctantly answer yes although I would have been happy to keep him as DofF. Did I feel it was right for him to step aside as Gills boss? No doubt.

 

[throwoff]

You know to me Hess is simple.

He believes he is amazing.

As a player for us thats what made him the man he is, a self belief that pushed him further and made him better.
As a manager you need to know when to admit you are wrong, and he seems incapable of doing so.

Would I have a more down to earth Hess? No bloody chance. His bulldog like belief is the reason we made it to where we did.