Jos Hooiveld

[Beef]

That is a bit short sighted, if there are any injuries we may well need him, he looked capable enough in the U21s and is one for the future.

Umm? I don't think you are getting what I ment, I said the 3 cb's as in Fonte, Hooiveld and Yoshida are coping. I didn't include Forren as we haven't seen him play in the Prem, so we do not know how good he really is. He could be class or he could be at the same level as the other 3 players.

 

[SAINTDON13]

Umm? I don't think you are getting what I ment, I said the 3 cb's as in Fonte, Hooiveld and Yoshida are coping. I didn't include Forren as we haven't seen him play in the Prem, so we do not know how good he really is. He could be class or he could be at the same level as the other 3 players.

Fair enough.

 

[TheSecondStain]

Umm? I don't think you are getting what I ment, I said the 3 cb's as in Fonte, Hooiveld and Yoshida are coping. I didn't include Forren as we haven't seen him play in the Prem, so we do not know how good he really is. He could be class or he could be at the same level as the other 3 players.

I've seen Forren play two games. One for Norway and another for Saints under 21s. In both games he didn't look as fit as he should, and he appeared overweight. He did some good things and he was also iffy. For me, he's not ready, but what do I know..?

 

[Beef]

I've seen Forren play two games. One for Norway and another for Saints under 21s. In both games he didn't look as fit as he should, and he appeared overweight. He did some good things and he was also iffy. For me, he's not ready, but what do I know..?

Too many pies?

 

[TheSecondStain]

Too many pies?

Yes, I ought to cut down on them.

 

[SAINTDON13]

I've seen Forren play two games. One for Norway and another for Saints under 21s. In both games he didn't look as fit as he should, and he appeared overweight. He did some good things and he was also iffy. For me, he's not ready, but what do I know..?

I agree, but unless he gets some minutes on the pitch he won't get fit, as I said one for the future, but useful to have in the armoury, has a good volley finish on him too.

 

[TheSecondStain]

I agree, but unless he gets some minutes on the pitch he won't get fit, as I said one for the future, but useful to have in the armoury, has a good volley finish on him too.

I'd close out the season, or put him on when we're really comfortable in a game, which isn't going to happen, because of maintaining our high tempo. I think he's going to have an uncomfortable pre-season, getting upto unheard of levels of fitness.

 

[benditlikeabanana]

Firstly I fail to see the argument that Forren is one for the future, he is 25 a full International and older than alot of the squad. Secondly JWP has been playing this style of play longer than most of the squad as its the way the youth teams have been playing for years, but maybe not pressing so hard. The youth players play out of position to incourage understanding amongst the players (there is a clip on youtube of Shaw playing a blinder against Chelsea on the right wing) so JWP could do a shift in Corks place, however Cork is a more defensive player having played at RB ans CB. If push came to shove I would play yoshie in that position if Cork got injured or Morgan picks up a ban.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Forren is one for the future in the sense that he is not playing now and will likely not play much the remainder of the season, but should hopefully be able to have an impact next year. And as a CB, he is likely a year or two away from his peak.

But I think you are correct in that as far as Saints are concerned his "future" has to be decided in the very near short term and it is probably better to consider him "present" player. Either he's good enough to start next season or he isn't. And if he isn't, then Saints don't have the luxury of playing him and he will also never reach his supposed potential.

 

[fran-MLs little camera]

Unless Forren is useless (unlikely), his main chance of getting on is if we finish so strongly we are safe with games to go. It would do him good to get subbed on, but I'm not sure that MP is any kind of risk taker with any result...he wants to win every game. Forren may have to wait until preseason and then really bust a gut to impress....otherwise he could see himself pushed even further back by a new signing.

 

[Big_Si]

Are CB's are playing better than at the start of the season but there are still moments of panic which results in a slice clearance or a slip etc. I think we need to strengthen at the back so the level Jos, Maya play at when they are having a great game is the level a new signing plays at a natural level.

Replicate that throughout the team and you have a very strong team/squad. Easier said than done though.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Hooiveld is limited in his movement and there's nothing he can do about it. Mentally, I think he is fine. He has all those OG's but it certainly not his fault if Fox randomly decides bounce a ball off his head into Saints' goal.

Yoshida on the other hand, can be counted on to do at least one hilariously awful thing a game. Against Chelsea it was the play that resulted in a Torres handball. I've seen that highlight half a dozen times now and it still cracks me up. Had Torres scored like he should have, maybe it wouldn't be so funny.

 

[TheSecondStain]

Hooiveld is limited in his movement and there's nothing he can do about it. Mentally, I think he is fine. He has all those OG's but it certainly not his fault if Fox randomly decides bounce a ball off his head into Saints' goal.

Yoshida on the other hand, can be counted on to do at least one hilariously awful thing a game. Against Chelsea it was the play that resulted in a Torres handball. I've seen that highlight half a dozen times now and it still cracks me up. Had Torres scored like he should have, maybe it wouldn't be so funny.

I don't know about nothing. Granted, he's unlikely to be able to make himself significantly more agile, given his age and frame, but he can play better in his head. He can still learn to position himself better or anticipate and therefore gain a yard or perhaps two. The defender considered best ever in the world, Bobby Moore, had no pace and very little agility. Most of the difference between the very best and the good footballers is mostly in the brain, and Jos still has plenty of room for improvement there.

 

[benditlikeabanana]

I don't know about nothing. Granted, he's unlikely to be able to make himself significantly more agile, given his age and frame, but he can play better in his head. He can still learn to position himself better or anticipate and therefore gain a yard or perhaps two. The defender considered best ever in the world, Bobby Moore, had no pace and very little agility. Most of the difference between the very best and the good footballers is mostly in the brain, and Jos still has plenty of room for improvement there.

You could compare Terry to Moore as both players read the game so well, yet if a slow defender confronted by a quick player say like Bale who is also intelligent all the striker has to do is knock it past them and they are clear, the defender has 2 options, hang deeper and distort the back line or foul the attacker risking a card or dangerous free kick. There is no substitute for pace and I would love a quick CB to be bought in. Watch the Gary Neville video and he mentions about Clyne and Shaw pulling close to our CBs giving them cover if Chelsea played the long ball and Torres would just run past Yoshi and Jos

 

[TheSecondStain]

You could compare Terry to Moore as both players read the game so well, yet if a slow defender confronted by a quick player say like Bale who is also intelligent all the striker has to do is knock it past them and they are clear, the defender has 2 options, hang deeper and distort the back line or foul the attacker risking a card or dangerous free kick. There is no substitute for pace and I would love a quick CB to be bought in. Watch the Gary Neville video and he mentions about Clyne and Shaw pulling close to our CBs giving them cover if Chelsea played the long ball and Torres would just run past Yoshi and Jos

Of course, point taken. We're not talking about the perfect defender here. We're talking about how an imperfect defender, namely Jos Hooiveld, could improve. It would still leave him imperfect, but better.

There are very few defenders who are actually faster or as fast as the strikers they have to face. Tbh, I can't think of one, but then I don't follow players and their abilities from other teams. I did see the Neville video.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

I agree with both of you. Maybe I overstated the case a bit in my first post.

I suppose my point was that IMO, Hooiveld is already pretty decent in terms of positioning and tactics. It's just that he has to be much better than the typical Premier League defender on account of his physical disadvantage in terms of quickness/coordination. I think he can and will get better but ultimately there will be teams he will have to sit against. OTOH, he would probably be particularly handy against physical teams so I see him as a very useful role player and one I wouldn't mind having in the squad.

Hooiveld slipped against Terry, but it wasn't a mental mistake. He did everything right other than falling down. Slips can happen to anyone but I think it's fair to say that they will happen more often to Hooiveld because he's a bit gawky. And Terry isn't particularly quick, just clever.

It's Yoshida that is more prone to the awful mental mistake. To his credit, I think he saved a goal against Chelsea with an excellent play when Moses(?) looked to be through. On the other hand, the Torres handball was really a nothing ball played in. It was so bad in fact, that that's why Yoshida screwed it up. He got too excited about the counter, overcharged it, and ended up flubbing a ball that I think even most of us could have handled!

It's easy to know what to do with Hooiveld in my opinion. He can start against physical teams and the degree to which he can gain experience to cover his weaknesses will determine how often he plays against others. Yoshida, unless he gets his head together, I can't see where to use him. He doesn't have a particular strength or flaw. He falls more into the category of general defender to me. Good enough for now maybe, but not good enough for our ambitions. So either he cuts down on the mistakes or you find someone better in which case it's hard to see how he gets into the side absent injury.

 

[#42]

Hoovield is the most prone CB we have to mental mistakes and lapses in concentration. It isn't open for debate. That's the factor what's kept Hoovield out the side at times. Yoshida has played 90 minutes since debut. There's a reason for that. He's less prone to mistakes and more solid over the course of several games or a season.

 

[- Doing The Lambert Walk]

Hooiveld is decent enough but does make mistakes. I personally think Yoshida is our best (most consistent) centre-half at this moment in time.

I like Fonte too, but he gets himself into trouble too. Centre-back is an area in need of serious improvement if we are to enjoy any further success really.

I really like Jos and Jose, but sooner rather than later we will have to move on. Maya I think will be decent enough. Vegard, who knows!

 

[AberdeenSaint]

I`m just glad we have Jos, Jose and Yoshi and not Chris Samba.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

I personally think Yoshida is our best (most consistent) centre-half at this moment in time.

Probably true. I'm not sure about him vs Font but Font has been hurt. So he is the most well-rounded of the defenders skill-wise so the easiest one to trot out there against any given team. I think he makes crazy-bad mistakes, but everyone else seems to disagree (but have you seen that Torres play?!?). But even then I alsoe credit him with one extraordinary move of genius every game so it evens out.

But I think we agree that Yoshida *shouldn't* be our best central defender, as that speaks to the mediocre quality of defense. Forren appears to (hopefully) be a better version of Hooiveld, though he does look awfully lumpy at the present. The need this summer then, would be to find a better version of Yoshida if we want to maintain the cultured guy/big guy sort of pairing. I'm still thinking Astori would be a nice fit.