Subs and missing players
- Thread starter bedfordcanary
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Agree with you Redruthyella.
Too many players ie Holt,Pilkington,Tettey,Bennett(E) are being asked to conform to a style which is alien to their attacking instincts.Only one "given his head" seems to be Snodgrass-unless he is not obeying orders!
Why are we stating to hoof it out of defence-usually giving the ball away in the process.?
The answer to me would seem to be-get Jonny Howson properly motivated by playing him just behind the forward(s)-preferably including Becchio!
Too many players ie Holt,Pilkington,Tettey,Bennett(E) are being asked to conform to a style which is alien to their attacking instincts.Only one "given his head" seems to be Snodgrass-unless he is not obeying orders!
Why are we stating to hoof it out of defence-usually giving the ball away in the process.?
The answer to me would seem to be-get Jonny Howson properly motivated by playing him just behind the forward(s)-preferably including Becchio!
The formation and players on Saturday were the same as played against Spurs. I doubt very much that there was much difference in the instructions either. You could see from Hughton's reactions on the touchline that the team were NOT following his instructions. Also, I don't see how you can say that Johnson "sits still" all game. Far from it. He is box to box all game.
When on Earth do you see Johnson running into the opposition box? The only time he gets there is on free kicks.
When do you see him bursting into the area with the ball, or coming from deep to header a ball.
Johnson is not a box to box player, he can't run with the ball, he can't receive a pass on the run, he can barely muster any speed to join any attack.
He has none of the characteristics associated with a box to box player, speed, power, control of the ball or intuition. He's really a just tough tackling defensive midfielder who does the grunt work and puts the miles in across the midfield, not into the opposition box.
Tettey on the other hand is at least quick and powerful and can run with the ball.
Yes, you only see Johnson taking an occasional long range shot on goal (about 90% of which are 'high, wide and handsome!!!!l) and he comes up for corners and free kicks. I don't think I've EVER seen him run very far with the ball and I've seen every game this season, either at CR or down the pub!!!
What I meant was that Johnson does not sit deep all game in front of the back four as you implied. No, he doesn't run into the opposition box, but he normally does move back and forth between the boxes left-side covering a LOT of ground (else he'd never even have shots from outside the opposition penalty area, which he quite often does). Nor did I say that he runs with the ball. He receives and passes, or wins the ball and passes.
What I meant was that Johnson does not sit deep all game in front of the back four as you implied. No, he doesn't run into the opposition box, but he normally does move back and forth between the boxes left-side covering a LOT of ground (else he'd never even have shots from outside the opposition penalty area, which he quite often does). Nor did I say that he runs with the ball. He receives and passes, or wins the ball and passes.
Well if he doesn't do the things you say he doesn't then he's not a box to box player.
I will maintain the vast majority of his energies go into getting the ball back in front of the back four and the occasional half hearted attempt to join an attack.
Happy to have my terminology corrected. I've been trying to find stats showing his movement and positioning but maybe only the club have that level of analysis.
This is from the EPL index following Liverpool, I couldn't find a more even (in terms of result) example.
The lack of pressing on Norwich’s part was understandable considering the pace of Liverpool’s front players. To press high up the pitch means to collectively move up as a team, where the chance of exposing either the space in behind the defence or the space between the backline and midfield is high. Only a well-drilled unit, with confidence in its defence, holds the ability to execute such a plan but it is a plan that Liverpool have recently struggled with.
Both Stoke City and Manchester United chose to press aggressively high up the pitch to put the Reds off their passing game and got positive results. Even Aston Villa, although camped in their own half for the majority of their triumph at Anfield, pressed with two strikers to force Liverpool to go through the sides rather than through the centre.
All but one of Norwich’s 21 tackles (17 successful) were attempted in their own half. All but 4 tackles were attempted in Liverpool’s attacking third. 48% of the tackles were made in and around their own penalty box and, quite ironically, the ball from one of those tackles on Suarez bounced up nicely for Henderson to volley in the opening goal. That goal was crucial in opening the proverbial floodgates.
Compare this to the treatment dished out to Liverpool at Stoke City, when 16 of the 26 tackles were attempted in either the middle third of the pitch or Liverpool’s defensive third. Consequently, Liverpool’s passing accuracy against Stoke was 84% overall (6% less than against Norwich) and 76% in the final third (7% less). Of course, the above comparison is made between a home and an away match, but Liverpool had 62% possession at the Britannia; only for their dominance to be in non-threatening areas due to the opposition’s plan.
Norwich’s strategy played into the hands of Steven Gerrard who thrives when given the freedom to pick out a pass and struggles when forced to do so under pressure. The talismanic skipper, who has played every minute of his club’s league campaign thus far, finished the game with 115 passes (93% accuracy). He also attempted 23 long balls, succeeding with 20 of them. Most tellingly, 60% of his passes were made in the attacking half and nearly a third of the passes were made in the attacking third.
Other highest passers in the match were centre-backs Jamie Carragher and Daniel Agger and defensive midfielder Lucas Leiva with 78, 76 and 67 passes respectively. The fact that a massive 41% of the passes made by these three players were made in the attacking half gives you an indication of how deep Norwich were camped in their own half
Its from this article
http://www.eplindex.com/25028/liverpool-5-norwich-0-tactical-analysis-curious-case-dj-vu.html
and here's one about passing
http://www.eplindex.com/24619/possession-football-spanish-success-changed-premier-league-11-12.html
The lack of pressing on Norwich’s part was understandable considering the pace of Liverpool’s front players. To press high up the pitch means to collectively move up as a team, where the chance of exposing either the space in behind the defence or the space between the backline and midfield is high. Only a well-drilled unit, with confidence in its defence, holds the ability to execute such a plan but it is a plan that Liverpool have recently struggled with.
Both Stoke City and Manchester United chose to press aggressively high up the pitch to put the Reds off their passing game and got positive results. Even Aston Villa, although camped in their own half for the majority of their triumph at Anfield, pressed with two strikers to force Liverpool to go through the sides rather than through the centre.
All but one of Norwich’s 21 tackles (17 successful) were attempted in their own half. All but 4 tackles were attempted in Liverpool’s attacking third. 48% of the tackles were made in and around their own penalty box and, quite ironically, the ball from one of those tackles on Suarez bounced up nicely for Henderson to volley in the opening goal. That goal was crucial in opening the proverbial floodgates.
Compare this to the treatment dished out to Liverpool at Stoke City, when 16 of the 26 tackles were attempted in either the middle third of the pitch or Liverpool’s defensive third. Consequently, Liverpool’s passing accuracy against Stoke was 84% overall (6% less than against Norwich) and 76% in the final third (7% less). Of course, the above comparison is made between a home and an away match, but Liverpool had 62% possession at the Britannia; only for their dominance to be in non-threatening areas due to the opposition’s plan.
Norwich’s strategy played into the hands of Steven Gerrard who thrives when given the freedom to pick out a pass and struggles when forced to do so under pressure. The talismanic skipper, who has played every minute of his club’s league campaign thus far, finished the game with 115 passes (93% accuracy). He also attempted 23 long balls, succeeding with 20 of them. Most tellingly, 60% of his passes were made in the attacking half and nearly a third of the passes were made in the attacking third.
Other highest passers in the match were centre-backs Jamie Carragher and Daniel Agger and defensive midfielder Lucas Leiva with 78, 76 and 67 passes respectively. The fact that a massive 41% of the passes made by these three players were made in the attacking half gives you an indication of how deep Norwich were camped in their own half
Its from this article
http://www.eplindex.com/25028/liverpool-5-norwich-0-tactical-analysis-curious-case-dj-vu.html
and here's one about passing
http://www.eplindex.com/24619/possession-football-spanish-success-changed-premier-league-11-12.html
Given the personnel we have at our disposal we are always going to have games where some players are not on top form. Regardless of our parochial support of them our players generally have less talent than those they are playing against in the PL and so to compete they have to play at nearer to 100% of their ability than the opposition. Results suggest that this has been the case and so kudos to the management team who must be getting a lot out of the team.
If we had a host of £10m players then we could expect more from them but where we are at the minute the team are doing pretty well and if you had offered me a 7 point cushion at this stage of the season I, and most others would have said thanks very much.
I do agree with the OP that it seems like CH does not really make tactical substitutions and I think it is not his strong point however the team are much more organsied than last season and will continue to develop. One point no-one seems to be making is how young our side is at the minute - I could be wrong but I htink only Holt and Wes are north of 30 so it would imply that the squad are on the way up rather than down.
My glass is defintely half full - I look forward to us surviving and then strenthening in the summer with a view to adding a bit more creativity and attacking prowess next season.
If we had a host of £10m players then we could expect more from them but where we are at the minute the team are doing pretty well and if you had offered me a 7 point cushion at this stage of the season I, and most others would have said thanks very much.
I do agree with the OP that it seems like CH does not really make tactical substitutions and I think it is not his strong point however the team are much more organsied than last season and will continue to develop. One point no-one seems to be making is how young our side is at the minute - I could be wrong but I htink only Holt and Wes are north of 30 so it would imply that the squad are on the way up rather than down.
My glass is defintely half full - I look forward to us surviving and then strenthening in the summer with a view to adding a bit more creativity and attacking prowess next season.
it was mentioned on the commentary on the stream i watched that QPR had 15 players 30+ in their squad and City had just 2.
Didn't realise there was such a discrepancy in experience. I suppose at least if we lose some of our players then we get fees whereas they just pensino theirs off.
On a slight tangent if Snod keeps playing this well I can see him being poached in the summer.
On a slight tangent if Snod keeps playing this well I can see him being poached in the summer.
Some good points about the Liverpool game, they ran the midfield it was probably one of the worst games I've seen Tettey & Johnson play.
When pressing I always expect the full backs to help the midfield, especially in a positioning sense I saw none of that but because we sat so deep it was impossible for the defence to get any further forward. We've improved a lot in the past two games but there are certain teams we seem to respect too much.
When pressing I always expect the full backs to help the midfield, especially in a positioning sense I saw none of that but because we sat so deep it was impossible for the defence to get any further forward. We've improved a lot in the past two games but there are certain teams we seem to respect too much.
Definitely agree about Snodgers. He has the rare skill of being about to dribble with the ball attached to his BACK foot. Nearly every winger dribbles with the ball on the FRONT foot which is OK for beating a player with pace but back foot dribbling is beating a player with guile. John Robertson of Forest fame was a great exponent.
I think he could walk into any of the team in the Prem. Milner, Sterling, Lennon, Nani don't have his ability.
@carrabuh
There's no disagreement about the fact that we have been playing too deep. IMO our current deficiencies (compared to during our unbeaten run) largely stem from that fact, as I said earlier in the thread. The question is why. I do not believe for a moment that Chris Hughton sends the team out either at the start or after half time with instructions to sit that deep. On the contrary, you can see from his reactions on the touchline that it is driving him mad. Likewise Holty's exasperation about the non-existent support and succession of long balls fired out of defence instead of midfield play. If the team were playing to instructions, Holty would not be waving his arms and shouting at his team mates. He's doing that because they are not playing as instructed. Against Liverpool, they did start off pressing high up the pitch, but after the first fifteen minutes or so, for some reason, they stopped doing it and dropped deeper and deeper. Against Spurs they kept it up for most of the first half, only to drop back as the game went on.
This is not unique to our players, it's a problem that many teams suffer from. In our case I guess the current bout is due in part to lost confidence after the poor Christmas period run; having Bassong out probably hasn't helped either. It is a self-perpetuating thing, because retaining possession and any sort of sustained attacking become impossible, undermining confidence even further.
We had much the same problem right at the start of the season and overcame it. We've now drawn two games in succession, which is a positive step in rebuilding confidence. I expect us to continue improving now and getting the handful of wins needed for survival. Beating Fulham would be a huge boost, but I will be happy if we draw that one.
There's no disagreement about the fact that we have been playing too deep. IMO our current deficiencies (compared to during our unbeaten run) largely stem from that fact, as I said earlier in the thread. The question is why. I do not believe for a moment that Chris Hughton sends the team out either at the start or after half time with instructions to sit that deep. On the contrary, you can see from his reactions on the touchline that it is driving him mad. Likewise Holty's exasperation about the non-existent support and succession of long balls fired out of defence instead of midfield play. If the team were playing to instructions, Holty would not be waving his arms and shouting at his team mates. He's doing that because they are not playing as instructed. Against Liverpool, they did start off pressing high up the pitch, but after the first fifteen minutes or so, for some reason, they stopped doing it and dropped deeper and deeper. Against Spurs they kept it up for most of the first half, only to drop back as the game went on.
This is not unique to our players, it's a problem that many teams suffer from. In our case I guess the current bout is due in part to lost confidence after the poor Christmas period run; having Bassong out probably hasn't helped either. It is a self-perpetuating thing, because retaining possession and any sort of sustained attacking become impossible, undermining confidence even further.
We had much the same problem right at the start of the season and overcame it. We've now drawn two games in succession, which is a positive step in rebuilding confidence. I expect us to continue improving now and getting the handful of wins needed for survival. Beating Fulham would be a huge boost, but I will be happy if we draw that one.