Refereeing decisions
- Thread starter PowerSpurs
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The Laws have a section on interpretation. They are very clear but not exactly common sense. 'Interfering with play' means playing or touching the ball - he didn't do this. 'Gaining an advantage' means playing a ball that rebounds to him - he didn't do this. 'Interfering with an opponent' means preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponents line of vision or movements or making a gesture or movement which, in the opinion of the referee, deceives or distracts an opponent. This is the interesting one for this incident, but the law says he must be doing this 'at the moment the ball is played by one of his team' so in your description above he is not offside.
Cisse was kept in an offside position by Evans. It was Evans who was putting hands on Cisse. Cisse was no more involved in the goal than Ba was, who was onside elsewhere in the area. If that goal should be disallowed for offside then perhaps Evans' at the other end should be disallowed, Chicarito was in the box and offside when the ball came in from the freekick.
I read about that but didn't mention it because MUTD... no wait, MOTD decided it wasn't worthy of showing.
No Luke, two things, as PNP rightly says, Simpsons effort was not a pass/cross. The way he shapes to strike the ball says to me it was a mishit shot. Contact between the 2 players is 50/50, but started by Evans, read your link, it is NOT an offence to be in an OS position in itself. Had the shot flew in at De Gea's near post with Evan and Cisse in the same position, the goal would have stood, the fact it went in via Evans is neither here nor there, had it gone in via Cisse, then OS it is. Cisse did not gain advantage, nor did he intentionally and blatantly obstruct Evans, or obstruct De Gea's view.
Secondly, and far more revealing is that Rio watches the whole thing in front of him, and neither he nor any other United player in view put their hands up for OS (see end of vid) ....what does that tell us!!
[video=youtube;RSbscHjbh3U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSbscHjbh3U[/video]
No Luke, two things, as PNP rightly says, Simpsons effort was not a pass/cross. The way he shapes to strike the ball says to me it was a mishit shot. Contact between the 2 players is 50/50, but started by Evans, read your link, it is NOT an offence to be in an OS position in itself. Had the shot flew in at De Gea's near post with Evan and Cisse in the same position, the goal would have stood, the fact it went in via Evans is neither here nor there, had it gone in via Cisse, then OS it is. Cisse did not gain advantage, nor did he intentionally and blatantly obstruct Evans, or obstruct De Gea's view.
Secondly, and far more revealing is that Rio watches the whole thing in front of him, and neither he nor any other United player in view put their hands up for OS (see end of vid) ....what does that tell us!!
[video=youtube;RSbscHjbh3U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSbscHjbh3U[/video]
OK, good points and I'd be happy to see the offside rule interpreted in this way more often to give an advantage to the attacking side. However, I can't help feeling that 99/100 of linesmen will be raising their flag the moment the ball is played and a central attacker is in an "offside" position, irrespective of the other considerations.
100 out of 100, Lidls. The linesman in that game raised his flag too, it's just that he was overruled.
He then spent the entire 2nd half getting slagged off for it by an angry, red-nosed Glaswegian, despite giving the decision in his favour.
He then spent the entire 2nd half getting slagged off for it by an angry, red-nosed Glaswegian, despite giving the decision in his favour.
I'd like to know what he was saying too, his beef should have been with the ref, no-one else, berating the others seems pointless knowing that.
I suppose the lino felt the intimidation of his surroundings! for his rather hastily raised flag. Easily analyized afterwards but in the cauldron of OT, it adds weight to officials hoping to do the right thing. Fair play to Mike Dean for his decision, not easy knowing that it'll upset OT. In all honesty I think it was the right call.
I suppose the lino felt the intimidation of his surroundings!
for his rather hastily raised flag. Easily analyized afterwards but in the cauldron of OT, it adds weight to officials hoping to do the right thing. Fair play to Mike Dean for his decision, not easy knowing that it'll upset OT. In all honesty I think it was the right call.
OK consider this:-
1) Evans sees Cisse running into an offside position.
2) Evans reacts by getting as close to Cisse as posible but he dos not want to play him onside.
3) Cisse realising he's potentially in an offside position and stops running forwards. (Cisse can not by ruled offside because, as we know, the ball had not been played towards him, at that point in time)
4) Cisse makes an attempt to step back onside. Evans then reaches out towards Cisse in an attempt to keep him offside.
The ball is then played by simpson.,
It could be argued that the 'first offence' was committed by Evans shortly before Simpsons played the ball and whether Simpson intended a shot or cross is immaterial IMO.
As YV has already side Cisse was being Kept beyond the last defender by Evans. I think Cisse was being pushed at one point but managed to evade the full force (of the push) by a nifty side step.
A good barrister could argue the case for the award of a penalty to Newcastle. It would have been rough justice had the ball not found its way to the back of the net.
1) Evans sees Cisse running into an offside position.
2) Evans reacts by getting as close to Cisse as posible but he dos not want to play him onside.
3) Cisse realising he's potentially in an offside position and stops running forwards. (Cisse can not by ruled offside because, as we know, the ball had not been played towards him, at that point in time)
4) Cisse makes an attempt to step back onside. Evans then reaches out towards Cisse in an attempt to keep him offside.
The ball is then played by simpson.,
It could be argued that the 'first offence' was committed by Evans shortly before Simpsons played the ball and whether Simpson intended a shot or cross is immaterial IMO.
As YV has already side Cisse was being Kept beyond the last defender by Evans. I think Cisse was being pushed at one point but managed to evade the full force (of the push) by a nifty side step.
A good barrister could argue the case for the award of a penalty to Newcastle. It would have been rough justice had the ball not found its way to the back of the net.
This all comes full circle back to the issue of consistency among officials. Decisions like whether a player is interfering with play, or not, are clearly subjective. Therefore, the way Dean interprets the incident could be seen completely differently by another Ref. So, as much as everybody would like to have consistency in officiating, while the laws of the game allow for so much to be left to the referee's interpretation, it ain't going to happen.
Exactly right, NSIS
Which is why you can argue for or against Dean's decision on Boxing Day and have a plausible case either way. The rules on offside are not clear enough on this crucial issue. It shouldn't be decided by the subjective view of the ref, who, in this case was at odds with his linesman!
Exactly right, NSIS
Which is why you can argue for or against Dean's decision on Boxing Day and have a plausible case either way. The rules on offside are not clear enough on this crucial issue. It shouldn't be decided by the subjective view of the ref, who, in this case was at odds with his linesman!
I agree that subjectivity sounds like a bad thing but it's really not and you need to be able to rely on the ref being able to account for the situation. Like I'm sure it's against the rules for someone to push another player yet I don't think anyone would suggest that Evans should have conceded a penalty for what he did. Then there's kicking other players, surely that's dangerous play and warrants a red? No one agreed with the ref who sent off Cole and Gibson. There has to be the wiggle room to apply commonsense at times and offside's no different. The only other options are to write a 500 page book going through thousands of offside calls so each conceivable call an official has to make will have a case study they can use to back up their decision or they could make it so that if any player is ever offside during a game then the lino flags and those ideas are ****.
Everyone's pretty clear on the offside rule, there aren't many times people differ over the interpretation and I think it stands as a success story of the FA coming out and explaining the rule to the refs, players, media and fans to clear up 99% of the time what the right decision is. Now they need to pull their fingers out and sort out handballs once and for all because there's a growing number of other problems piling up behind it to also be sorted. Diving's one and obstructing the keeper.. oh and holding players at set pieces... and referee's reports... bad language between players... what chants fans can and can't chant... terraces... ffp and so on.
The point I was making is that so much subjectivity in officiating is hardly conducive to achieving the desired holy grail of consistency. Officials are human beings. Naturally, the point of view of one will vary greatly from that of another.
This question of whether a player is interfering with play is far too subjective though, YV.
If your opposition's centre forward is in the centre of the penalty area, 8 yards from goal, anticipating a cross, then he's playing an active part in the game, whichever way you look at it. To say that he is deemerd onside because he was jostling with a centre half, who intercepted the ball before he could touch it or because the player who delivered the ball may (or may not) have shot at goal rather than crossed is wholly artificial.
The player's position on the pitch when the ball is delivered should determine whether he is on/offside, not a subjective evaluation of what his role in subsequent events may or may not have been. It's impossible to expect a consistent interpretation of that latter point.
If your opposition's centre forward is in the centre of the penalty area, 8 yards from goal, anticipating a cross, then he's playing an active part in the game, whichever way you look at it. To say that he is deemerd onside because he was jostling with a centre half, who intercepted the ball before he could touch it or because the player who delivered the ball may (or may not) have shot at goal rather than crossed is wholly artificial.
The player's position on the pitch when the ball is delivered should determine whether he is on/offside, not a subjective evaluation of what his role in subsequent events may or may not have been. It's impossible to expect a consistent interpretation of that latter point.
So do you think that Evans' first goal should have been ruled out too then? As I mentioned before he was offside in the area when the ball went in and if the fact that the ball didn't make it to him straight away doesn't matter he should also be ruled offside in your view, yes? I think it'd be silly to even go as far as saying any player in an offside position in the area when a ball is played in is offside. Setpieces for a start would be heaped in the defences favour and you would kill the brinksmanship that defenders and attackers have with eachother at the moment.
Cisse wasn't offside, he was in an offside position. The moment the ball is struck(whether cross or shot is irrelevent) is the moment when he is no longer able to play a part in the move until someone else plays the ball. Cisse didn't do anything to affect the game once the ball was hit so it's not offside, Evans had to clear the ball and messed it up which was his own fault.
Luke., there was no jostling going on. It was Evans who stretched out his hand, pushed and held Cisse's shirt, thus preventing him from either standing still or retreated to an onside position.
Pushing (and hold the oppositions shirt) is an offence whether it be 8 yrds from goal or just inside the centre circle.
Evans is clearly fouling Cisse when Simpson makes contact with the ball.
Advantage played... goal allowed.
It was at that point that both the referee and the linesman lost their Christmas bonus and the little something for the weekend, maybe !.
Points have been about the particular incident, but as a general principle is that a player is offside if he is caught if he is nearer to the goal than the ball and the second-last opponent when the ball is played by his teammate and is involved in active play.
I remain to be convinced than a player is in the centre of goal, 8 yards out, ready to meet the ball delivered in his direction, occupying defenders and in the line of sight of the 'keeper is not "active". He is clearly part of the attacking move whether or not the ball reaches him. This is where the issue becomes very subjective.
Going back to the Evans/Cisse case, it was the presence of Cisse which pressurised Evans into an error; in simple terms, he benefited from his offside position. He didn't become less active because he failed to touch the ball. However, I do accept in the case that if Simpson shot at goal rather than crossed, then, as others have said, it's a different issue.
I remain to be convinced than a player is in the centre of goal, 8 yards out, ready to meet the ball delivered in his direction, occupying defenders and in the line of sight of the 'keeper is not "active". He is clearly part of the attacking move whether or not the ball reaches him. This is where the issue becomes very subjective.
Going back to the Evans/Cisse case, it was the presence of Cisse which pressurised Evans into an error; in simple terms, he benefited from his offside position. He didn't become less active because he failed to touch the ball. However, I do accept in the case that if Simpson shot at goal rather than crossed, then, as others have said, it's a different issue.
I don't think it is that subjective - read my post #62 above where I've put in the extracts from the Laws. Basically a player has to touch the ball, get a a rebound or be in line of sight to be active. The last of these will usually only apply to the Goalkeeper's line of sight as you can hardly be between the last other defender and the ball and also be closer to the goal than the last defender.....
So you agree that Evans goal at the other end should be ruled out for offside? Sorry but your suggestion still seems mad to me.
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As for Cisse's presence, only Evans will know whether he would have tried to clear the ball without him there but given that he had no knowledge of where Ba was or what was behind him other than Cisse then. I'd say it's unlikely though that Evans wouldn't have tried to clear the ball, it ended up in the back of the net because he misjudged it and was a bit unlucky, nothing to do with Cisse.