Are we fit?

[notsosmartspur]

Been bugging me this one, mentioned it once or twice but no-one has picked up on it, so I'm just seeing if I'm on my own here. I don't think the majority of our squads general fitness is all that atm, I really don't. It seems to me after the 3/4 mark players start huffing and puffing and ambling around like its the 2nd half of extra time! and then its like a domino effect. Not all, obviously Bale is an exceptional athlete, but we all agree we don't finish matches strongly, and I think it's a big part of our conceding goals in the last 10 imo.

If it is the case, at this stage of the season you would have to look at the training regime.

Bradford had a higher level of fitness than I've seen from us this season.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

Are we fit? Well I don't want to come across as arrogant but...

I never really thought of it being about fitness, to be honest. Gallas does seem to tire very dramatically in the second half but hopefully we won't have to play him too often in the rest of the season. We've switched off at times, neither Dawson or Gallas have the athleticism to defend the way AVB wants us to, the back 5 have kept changing and our midfield go too deep. It's weird because Sandro doesn't trackback when we're under pressure he goes all out closing everyone down which suggests to me our midfield crashing into the defence and playing hoofball up to Defoe isn't the plan when we're trying to see out the game. Hopefully AVB will have this sorted soon and having Parker back might help bring more order to our defensive play.

 

[Boss]

There has to be question marks as a high pressing games requires high levels of cardio, staminia, rather then the sit deep (contain) and quick bursts of counter attacking football and cardio levels can't just be increased over night or a few weeks in the gym, it takes time and playing to the same system each week so if the players aren't fit then they will be improving their fitness levels, yet rest is important.

However i'm sure the players fitness levels are monitored and data put on a fancy computer! as that was one of the reasons for the "big change" this year, bring in sports scientists, new coaches and a new training ground.

It will be interesting to see if we can actually be better as a team in the second half of the season, rather then fade away, and maybe as the players fitness levels improve, we will see an improvement in seeing out games.

 

[KingHotspur]

I think now its more a mental problem than a physical one.

Yes certain players may tire towards end of games but for us it seems to be the whole team losing focus or concentration at the end of matches.

Hopefully we can sort this out asap otherwise it could keep costing us points and victories.

 

[Roo]

Could it be that certain players have played in almost, if not all our games so far? Sandro, walker, vertonghen, Defoe...

Traveling across Europe regularly and therefore playing 2 games a week quite often, is bound to take its toll.

Need to strengthen and rotate, otherwise we face that spell that we had last season again!

 

[notsosmartspur]

Could it be that certain players have played in almost, if not all our games so far? Sandro, walker, vertonghen, Defoe...

Traveling across Europe regularly and therefore playing 2 games a week quite often, is bound to take its toll.

Need to strengthen and rotate, otherwise we face that spell that we had last season again!

Can't agree really, its no different for other teams in Europe, and we've been in Europe a few seasons now so its nothing new. We're a third way through the season, so it shouldn't be that much of an issue. Loss of concentration is one result of fatigue, so I just think there maybe more in this.

 

[Spurf]

There has to be question marks as a high pressing games requires high levels of cardio, staminia, rather then the sit deep (contain) and quick bursts of counter attacking football and cardio levels can't just be increased over night or a few weeks in the gym, it takes time and playing to the same system each week so if the players aren't fit then they will be improving their fitness levels, yet rest is important.

However i'm sure the players fitness levels are monitored and data put on a fancy computer! as that was one of the reasons for the "big change" this year, bring in sports scientists, new coaches and a new training ground.

It will be interesting to see if we can actually be better as a team in the second half of the season, rather then fade away, and maybe as the players fitness levels improve, we will see an improvement in seeing out games.

I agree with this. Much of our energy is being expended in having to think more. The new 'systems' are not yet second nature, whether they will become so will be much to do with AVB being a success or not. The great advantage of Harry's system is that it relies purely on the natural attributes of the players who are picked. Harry's main input was to select them. AVB has to select them and then give them a detailed game plan to work with. That's more difficult and more tiring.

It's like when you are learning to drive, it's very tiring. I always remember on an early lesson forgetting to steer the car because I was concentrating on clutch control. Once you can do it it's very easy. Spurs at the moment are sometimes forgetting to steer as well.

 

[remembercolinlee]

I think that last week v Everton was a fitness issue but we had played the previous Thursday, Saturday, Wednesday, Sunday, Thursday - that's 6 matches in 17 days.
As we've been missing key players such as; Parker, Kaboul, BAE as well as Bale & Dawson for 3 of them it's meant it has been difficult to rotate.

I think the missing players ( as well as the above we've lost Adebayor for 7 or 8 matches due to injury then suspension and Dembele for 8 or 9 matches ) and the loss of the ability to rotate has cost us.

 

[Roo]

Can't agree really, its no different for other teams in Europe, and we've been in Europe a few seasons now so its nothing new. We're a third way through the season, so it shouldn't be that much of an issue. Loss of concentration is one result of fatigue, so I just think there maybe more in this.

I know mate, what I was getting at is that there are certain players who have played nearly all, if not all of the 20something games we've played so far. That's alot.
You seem to be forgetting that last season our europa team was substantially weaker and the competition wasn't taken seriously. Even in the CL campaign, we didn't have players who'd played pretty much 20something games, with out a break. I know harry wasn't the best for rotating, but the injuries to first team players have been far worse/more lengthly this time round than harry had to deal with, if my memory serves me correctly.

 

[Spurf]

Just another thought; If their diets have been changed radically it could lead to a short term fall off in fitness and stamina that will hopefully improve as the body adjusts.

 

[O.Spurcat]

There was a press report earlier in the season where it was said the players were in revolt with AVB over being put through two training sessions a day which was allegedly knackering them. This was pretty much scoffed at by most as being a cheap media attempt to derail our chances against Man United as the reports appeared the day before we played them.

In fact the story did have some truth as some players had spoken with AVB saying they were struggling with his training routines as both sessions were of higher intensity than they had been used to.

In contrast, I did mention a while back the players were unhappy with their pre-match warm up routine. By this I mean the work done in the immediate 45 minutes prior to kick off. They felt it didn't leave them sharp enough at the start of games. This was evident in the Fulham game where the fitness coach was putting the starting eleven through a decent enough routine, but along came our assistant coach who took the CB's away from this and proceeded to put them through a "warm up" routine which would have embarrased a pub team. What happened next was inevitable. One CB pulled up less than 20 minutes into the game because he hadn't been warmed up properly on a bitterly cold afternoon.

So in conclusion, I suspect we are seeing the effects of a combination of the two circumstance, a reduction from the early season double sessions and a suspect pre-match warm up which leaves some players feeling under prepared.

 

[Spurf]

It's a difficult one for AVB OS! He didn't pick his assistant and that makes it difficult politically for him to exert his authority if he doesn't like the warm up's. AVB must be very sensitive to putting noses out of joint in view of what happened to him at Chelsea.

 

[vimhawk]

Sometimes things happen that cannot be explained. But it's in our nature to seek / require explanations. This often leads to certain things being take for fact that are actually unproven. We also like to see patterns in things. If something happens a few times then there "must be a reason for it". This is compounded by intense scrutiny of every goal / decision / performance that would not have occurred in the past. Even if there are reasons, then I think to say something like "it's fitness" is far too simplistic. The real world isn't this simple, and sometimes can't really be understood. But again that makes us uncomfortable so we come up with a simpler explanation and go with it. I think if there was a simple explanation for things happening then it would have been addressed. There is a quote which I think works for many situations, can't remember who said it:
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers".

 

[notsosmartspur]

Sometimes things happen that cannot be explained. But it's in our nature to seek / require explanations. This often leads to certain things being take for fact that are actually unproven. We also like to see patterns in things. If something happens a few times then there "must be a reason for it". This is compounded by intense scrutiny of every goal / decision / performance that would not have occurred in the past. Even if there are reasons, then I think to say something like "it's fitness" is far too simplistic. The real world isn't this simple, and sometimes can't really be understood. But again that makes us uncomfortable so we come up with a simpler explanation and go with it. I think if there was a simple explanation for things happening then it would have been addressed. There is a quote which I think works for many situations, can't remember who said it:
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers".

Don't quite know what to make of that, and I don't know what field of work you do to arrive at your euphemism "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers". I've worked all my life in some sort of mech/elec engineering, and I can assure you, complex million pound machines and large factories can be brought to a standstill over a fuse!

 

[notsosmartspur]

I know mate, what I was getting at is that there are certain players who have played nearly all, if not all of the 20something games we've played so far. That's alot.
You seem to be forgetting that last season our europa team was substantially weaker and the competition wasn't taken seriously. Even in the CL campaign, we didn't have players who'd played pretty much 20something games, with out a break. I know harry wasn't the best for rotating, but the injuries to first team players have been far worse/more lengthly this time round than harry had to deal with, if my memory serves me correctly.

Roo, I think I know why you have this view, you've seen what you would think to be older and wiser posters coming out with this...don't be hoodwinked! Its load of crap mate and here's why http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/shared/bsp/hi/football/statistics/players/m/mata_354968.stm If you scroll down to this season, you'll see he's played 25 games...the last one where he was MOM, just round the corner in Tokyo! and thats not long after Spains much publicised silly trip to Central America recently.

I could continue to list players who have played more and travelled further, and still look infinitly fitter. The posters previously spouting this have no idea, and are probably not capable of seeing the wood for the trees!

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

In my opinion at least some of it has come from our inability to keep good possession and force sides to defend for prolonged periods of time.
When the opposition are behind and still forced to run around after shadows, it tires them horribly, both physically and mentally.
We're not putting teams under that kind of pressure enough, for me.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Roo, I think I know why you have this view, you've seen what you would think to be older and wiser posters coming out with this...don't be hoodwinked! Its load of crap mate and here's why http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/shared/bsp/hi/football/statistics/players/m/mata_354968.stm If you scroll down to this season, you'll see he's played 25 games...the last one where he was MOM, just round the corner in Tokyo! and thats not long after Spains much publicised silly trip to Central America recently.

I could continue to list players who have played more and travelled further, and still look infinitly fitter. The posters previously spouting this have no idea, and are probably not capable of seeing the wood for the trees!

You're picking specific players and saying that they disprove the need for rotation, Notso.
That's like saying that Usian Bolt can run the 100m in under 10 seconds consistently, so everyone should be able to.

Ferguson rotates. Mourinho rotates. Every successful Premier League manager has rotated.
It's necessary and our end of season burnout every season under Redknapp, when he didn't do it, was a clear indicator that we didn't use the squad properly.
Our inability to do so this season is costing us, too.

 

[notsosmartspur]

You're picking specific players and saying that they disprove the need for rotation, Notso.
That's like saying that Usian Bolt can run the 100m in under 10 seconds consistently, so everyone should be able to.

Ferguson rotates. Mourinho rotates. Every successful Premier League manager has rotated.
It's necessary and our end of season burnout every season under Redknapp, when he didn't do it, was a clear indicator that we didn't use the squad properly.
Our inability to do so this season is costing us, too.

Oh go away PNP!, do not put words in my mouth please and read the thread title, this is not some round the houses attempt at going down the road of a rotation rant. Only you could come up with that! Its about player fitness and nothing else.

 

[remembercolinlee]

Roo, I think I know why you have this view, you've seen what you would think to be older and wiser posters coming out with this...don't be hoodwinked! Its load of crap mate and here's why http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/shared/bsp/hi/football/statistics/players/m/mata_354968.stm If you scroll down to this season, you'll see he's played 25 games...the last one where he was MOM, just round the corner in Tokyo! and thats not long after Spains much publicised silly trip to Central America recently.

I could continue to list players who have played more and travelled further, and still look infinitly fitter. The posters previously spouting this have no idea, and are probably not capable of seeing the wood for the trees!

Disappointed to see you being so rude mate...I thought this was a discussion so I gave an opinion...wasn't spouting anything imo

 

[notsosmartspur]

Disappointed to see you being so rude mate...I thought this was a discussion so I gave an opinion...wasn't spouting anything imo

I'm sorry you've taken it that way colin, because in no way is it singling anyone out, tbh I wasn't aware you shared the view. I'm generalising about something I've read over a few seasons that irritates me immensely. I counter it every season with what I've done here, proving other players have played more and travelled further, yet every time people here have to try and make some kind of exception for Spurs players...rather than admit a failing.