I liked harry but i get why he was sacked. He spent 4 months telling the world that world that the england job was not upsetting the players. Nor was his refusal to sign a new contract unsettling the players. Then he spent all summer whining that spurs not offering him a new contract was unsettling the same players. He gambled on the England job and lost out. As for avb my honest opinion is that spurs should have gone for David moyes but ave is our boss and deserves more than knee jerk reactions. We lost 5 2 to arsenal last year with a full team and 11 players...we lost 5 1 to chelsea yet for very similar results avb should go and levy should be slated? Do people remember life under sugar?
You do talk some tosh sometimes Luke. Tactics are you saying Harry was better! Really? utter bilge! AVB has to become familier with the players and they with him and his tactics. It would also be handy to have most of your squad to chose from and not half of it. Ever since Harry has left I have had to read of your undying love for him. How he was the greatest this and that! Just Bollocks Luke. Harry had a good squad most of which he inherited from Jol. He made a few decent signings and also some naf ones. He had a preference for older players and little interest in the kids. We now have a manager who doesn't spend his time telling us how good he is and bigging himself up. Harry himself admitted not be a great tactical man, yet you critisise AVB who takes time and effort to plan his games. Until he has some time on the job it will not all work like clockwork, so give it a rest. Harry has gone FFS get over it. Mr Manchester United fan. Perhaps it's time to start worrying about who will take over at your club when SAF retires rather than bleating on and on about Harry. Any one would think it mattered to you.
I really think you can do better than just keep regurgitating the Harry days. You make a very useful contribution to this board in my view but let's have some fresh arguments from you rather than this worn out historic stuff. We spent weeks arguing the pros and cons of Harry and it's all been said many times by both sides. Time to move on surely!
I thought Luke made some valid points - and maybe they have ben made efore but what point on here has not 1 Upheaval - there is bound to be transition time - True 2 Experience - AVB young and naive at times - True (so Harry was not great but that point was not being made) 3 Man management - some of the players are Harry's - well aren't they - True 4 Confidence - a year ago - at this time - we were on the crest of a wave weren't we - True This is transition time so long as we have patience we can see just how effective AVB will become - so far I think he has made a reasonable start and even Fergie took many years to sort out Man U. Harry was rightly replaced - he did well for us but his time had come - is AVB right for us - he was not my choice - but nor was David Moyes - but AVB is our manager and we will support him
Whilst not a fan of AVB, nor of Harry if I'm honest, we can't really judge after 12 games of a season and never having a full squad to choose from. There have been some puzzling decisions made tactically and in team selection, but that's only my opinion, I'm not a football manager even in the computer game sense of the word so what I think of players and their abilities or complete lack of them may be utterly wrong. Upheaval, in management; coaching staff & methodology; players & tactics there has been but these are not wet behind the ears academy players, but professionals so they can't blame results on such bilge. Experience, there hasn't been to my knowledge a single player take to the field thus far without first team experience, and AVB has not just dipped his toe into management, he's won leagues & trophies FFS, so thats balls too. Man management, how the hell would we know, are we included in the training sessions? And which players are Harrys exactly? Not Verts, Caulker, Dumbsey, Siggy, Lloris or Dembele? And thats a third of the matchday squad right there. Confidence, well that can only come with the results, performances and backing of the fans (and partially the media), this spurs team haven't had much of any of these. There is plenty of to-ing & fro-ing to go this season. I fully expect AVB to last til the end of it and get us a European place... now. If that doesn't happen, I'm sorry for all the apologists out there but he will be gone. I also fully expect a fair few of the players we have now to be there at the beginning of next season, but if we don't get a European place... then I'm sorry but they will be gone. My only REAL concern from yesterday (as I didn't expect us to get a result in any way shape or form) was AVB's comment that the "result was indifferent to the players" if that really, truly is the case against L'Arse then we are in trouble. Because it means the players don't care about the fans, and once you lose the fans then its a long, spiralling way down, just ask Blackburn & Steve Kean.
OK fair enough it's all about opinions and my opinion is that to keep reiterating support for Harry and in effect saying we should never have got rid of him get's boring because the arguments have been done to death. Having said that nobody is gagged and if they don't agree as you don't then the arguments will continue. Don't forget that because I am a mod that does not exclude me from having opinions but also those opinions should not carry anymore weight than any other poster. My discussion with Luke is one poster to another. I know nobody mentioned it but I thought I should point it out in case anyone got the impression that I was moderating.
I presume this was in reply to GH10's post about Levy/AVB? Please correct me if I'm wrong spurf However, there's a few others who have also made comments on Levy. I know I keep banging on about it and feel free to shut me up, but I have to agree. I will continue to make this point, because it's becoming more and more clearer to me having spotted it 3 or 4 transfer windows ago. Iknow the OP speaks of Harry, but I don't even wanna talk about him and the past, he was sacked for various legitimate reasons and we move on. i think it's pointless to keep talking about him. But Levy seems to think he's got this divine right to expect a top 4 finish. He wants CL football, but he's the reason why we've not got there. We've got some outstanding players, but there's been areas of the squad that have needed sorting out for a year or 2 now. For example, how long have we been saying that we need a marquee striker? I dread to think. Every "top 4" contender has them and we know that. But we've done nothing about sorting that out. There's been window after window to take care of this, but we think they're all too expensive. Instead we've just signed squad players or veterans on loans, for shoestring prices in the hope that we get there. Fine, you try this once or twice, but there comes a time where you have to realise that that approach doesn't work. - especially with those teams around you also doing their own thing in order to get stronger. The summer was an opportunity for a fresh start to take the club forward. Last season we were all aware of the positions that needed strengthening whilst harry was in charge and before he was sacked. When we had modric, we still needed another similar player to come in incase he was injured, in need of a rest, or potentially suspended. -3 common reasons for the need for squad depth. But we didn't sign anyone. When he was out, we missed him badly. so this season, we signed dembele as a creative replacement. although a different player to modric, he's still that type of player. But we needed dembele when we had modric! so the sale and signing of those two cancel one another out. In conclusion, we haven't strengthened. we then sell Rafa. Not an issue for me, although a top player. fitness and injuries always hampered him, but we could have replaced him. Sig is one for the future (potenitally). he's only 22 and showed great signs before we signed him. But he's no rafa. he's another promising midfield player who would be coming in to add strength to the overall squad. therefore rafa wasn't replaced either. Dempsey was a universal buy for me as he can play in a few positions. He's the result of Levy not putting his hand in his pocket for the 4th window in a row and getting the striker we've needed, so he was plan B. But plan B isn't good enough. he was a punt of a signing for cheap money, and the result of our usual transfer tactics, where levy is the root of the problem. To go into a season for 3 games, only having 1 striker, and 2 new signings is madness. especially when neither of those signings are replacements for players that we knew were leaving. The club knew Modric was on his bike (so he didn't play once) and you can bet that they knew Rafa was leaving too. He only appeared once in those 3 first games. They were 2 massive players who are hard to replace instantly, let alone leaving the arrivals till transfer deadline day, or not replacing them properly at all, IMO. The Ade saga, why was that left until so late? He had no preseason and it's taken this long to get him back with injuries considered too. (injuries happen all the time and are to be expected... so there's why we needed more depth). none of us could quite believe that we'd started the season with just 2 strikers, especially after seeing Kane go out on loan too. - And look what happened; an very common squad injury to ade which left us with just Defoe until 2 weeks ago. - I remember PNP tearing his hair out in sheer disbelief that we'd gone into the season with 2 strikers. None of us knew whether our new signings would work out, you never do. I certainly didn't think that Dempsey would be this poor, or sig would also add very little. But regardless, we still didn't take care of the positions that needed strengthening or replacing, because once again we wouldn't make a net spend. This coupled with the timing of our signings when the season has already started, is the main reason for us all to be frustrated, IMO. Why bring in a new coach who's going to play new tactics, new formations and just a general fresh approach for the future, if you're not going to back him properly? it's completely pointless. why the hell were 2 huge signings in Moutinho and Willian left until the very end of the window? well, I guess I can answer that one myself; their prices. so why didn't we turn our attention elsewhere, knowing the prices were high and have a backup plan, rather than failing with hours to go and end up being left with nothing? The approach we currently adopt is fine, but not if the club expect a top 4 finish. it therefore becomes a half-hearted attempt in every window where the manager isn't properly backed and we end up not achieving our goal. United, City, Chels and Arsenal all sign players throughout the summer every season. Yes, amongst those clubs there's a couple of additions on deadline day. (notably Javi Garcia for city this year). but 3 out of those 4 make a net spend to get what they need. I'm not saying we can spend the sorts of money that united, city and chelsea do, but we have to try and compete. 5m net spend over 5 years or whatever it is, how is that competing in any way, shape or form? (please don't pick me up on exact figures, the point over our net spend being nothing in comparison still stands) Arsenal are a bit like us in terms of always wanting to profit, but they still sign who they need early on and get the players settled. with this approach, it also lets the manager know who else he needs to add to his squad,with time to go. - that makes a huge difference. our approach is just a messy, last minute "hope for the best" tactic, which is failing window after window. The knock on affect can have a huge impact, and this season it has for us. We've been very unlucky with injuries to first team players this season, more so that I can remember for a long time. but that's football, injuries happen. my beef is that we haven't prepared for obvious situations like this which can happen to any club. We can show our frustration for AVB and his defensive substitutions, or his persistence with a 4231 not working, or who he's picked, or our frustration over Ade's red card...whatever we like. But most of this could have been avoided had Levy given him what he needed. take the red card situation, yes ade was an idiot, but these things happen. now what do we do? 1 striker for 3 games and back to a 4231 which hasn't been working. Again, we're into the season on a shoestring budget and the concerns that some of us had on deadline day are coming to fruition. Levy's managed to cover things up over recent seasons because harry did miracles with what he had, but Levy's been found out now IMO and he's got a lot to answer for. However, if our expectations were to finish top 6 or 7, none of this would be relevant. our £5m net spend approach would be more in line (in general) with other clubs who are trying to finish in a similar position. Newcastle or Everton for example. Instead we've got a net spend approach similar to the sorts of clubs mentioned. - But the our club think they've got a right to expect top 4, when our approach is way off the pace and very different to the others at the top, for many reasons. The club's expectations and mentality needs to change if this is to be the continued approach. Otherwise it's going to be like groundhog day. The manager might have a few flaws, but they are nothing compared to the underlying problem which has gone on for a couple of years now. (spurf, that wasn't meant as just a reply to you by the way) sorry for the huge essay as well lads!
I actually have more respect for Villas-Boas after yesterday's game, as odd as that might sound. He realised that his tactics haven't been working and went with a very attacking side against a team that most aren't willing to risk playing an open game. I think it was working well until the red card, which isn't something that he can really legislate for. His changes after the break were also positive and very nearly worked, bar some unfortunate decision making in the final third. Redknapp did very well for us, but my main problem with him, apart from his relationship with the media, was his apparent inability to learn. It might be to do with his age and having established practices that have worked very well for him in the past, but he seemed happy to bang his head against a brick wall, at times. He failed to work out rotation and stuck with a very small number of players as often as he could, which saw us run out of steam at the end of every season. Once he picked a system, he kept using it constantly, regardless of it's failings or the results and performances that the team were putting out. I don't buy this accusation that he's tactically clueless, though. You don't get to where he is in the game if you don't understand it.
Your essay is a perfect and true assessment of the way the club is being run . Well done. As you have said Harry worked wonders with the resources given to him. The board, owners, do not back their managers with any real commitment. This will never go away unless there is a change.
I do not visit here as often as you so perhaps did not read it the same way - I did not see this as supporting Harry particularly - maybe Luke is living in the past but I failed to pick that up. It was not as a Mod that I read your comments - I just felt you put him down a bit - but as I say if I was here more maybe I would understand. I thought Harry was good till he applied for the England job but after that he had burned his bridges - I agree it was best we moved on - trouble is I could not really think of a manager I wanted to replace him - not massively keen on Moyes who seems to be one name frequently mentioned. AVB could be good or not - much too early to tell
The Board have consistently spent all the money the Club actually has. We can't possibly spend eg £30m on Moutinho in advance of knowing the Modric deal - it's just too big a risk. We don't have a City or Chelsea type sugar daddy and I for one don't want one. Not because of any delusions of unfairness but simply because you can't tell in advance whether you are getting a genuine football fan like Abramovich or some con artist like those who did for Portsmouth. If it's our current approach or a fifty:fifty chance of the PL or going bust - I'm going for Levy every time. What I see at Spurs is an ambitious club who are investing every last penny in trying to keep up with three clubs who have been more successful over the years (Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal) and two who have unlimited resources (Man C and Chelsea). They have been pretty successful at that as we've finished above at least one of them for three seasons running. But not getting CL this year was a major blow. I applaud Levy for taking a risk and getting AVB in. It might not work but Harry had got to his limits.
The board have always backed managers and DoFs in the past. 'Arry particularly got a lot of backing after we'd spent a lot in the summer with Comolli but when he's spending big money on signings like Palacios, Keane, Crouch and Bassong who he then discards quickly after their first season it's understandable that transfers were taken out of his hands to an extent and Levy looked to make sure our best players were kept by raising our wage cap and total by a lot to help this. Levy's bargaining and brinkmanship might not be to everyone's taste but he's been a fairly significant part of us putting together a quality side with some great prospects coming through and training facilities that are up there with the best in the World.
The board have not backed any of the last managers on a competitive level . " Put your money were your mouth is" net spend 4million in the last 5 seasons says it all.
You can only have a positive net spend on transfers if either (1) your income exceeds your other costs (which it doesn't) or (2) you have money from another source like Abramovich.
As many have said many times, we could have gone that little extra and we would be playing Champs league and not always selling our best players.
not this again! You were given all the reasons it didn't happen, even this squad only has a best 11-14, we're using players now you'd be touting for rotation...and thats going really well isn't it! Its as bad as Luke going on about Harry and Gh about Lloris, give it a ****in rest!
What has cost us dear this season so far is simple.. 'Its not getting Champions League football'. Had Spurs got Champions League (CL) we would all be laughting (dispite being overturned by the Arse) and with the extra guarantied funds to come, we would not be facing this extented challenge now. Levy's reasoning is sound and he has ample justification for his actions during the last few seasons., His judgment of managers is sound.., his judgment on players might not be., but when all is "said and done' the fact that we havn't got 'Champions League' or 'big name signings' this season is not down to him alone. More-over lets look towards the monumental piss-ups of the back-end of last season., The 12 points lead generated on our nearest rival for that precious Champions League place, which was pissed up the purverable wall. Lets not forget the contribution to this failure by others including the dispicable attitude displayed by a certain key player. Without doubt, We are still paying the price of failure., yes failure to preserve CL football for this season and If we are going to start pointing fingers again, lets at least be pragmatic.
cheers SF PS, I tend to agree with most of that. you're right, we don't have a sugar daddy and probably can't spend before we've got the confirmation of a sale in place. I also applaud Levy for taking the risk and getting AVB, for the vision and future for the club. But what frustrates me, is the way that the new manager hasn't been backed correctly. You mention about us not spending before we've got genuine sales lined up, but aren't we a profitable club who can afford to actually spend a little bit, regardless of big sales funds coming in? would it be fair to say that if we hadn't have got the 30 odd mill for Modric, that we'd be without Dembele + others? ..... ....And this is why I don't think we can expect or demand 4th as a club. I've already mentioned this, but the first problem was that there were holes in the team before Rafa and Modric left, we all discussed this and even made a thread about it. So not only did we need to get those extra players before they left, we were then in need of replacing those two aswell (problem 2). We never properly sorted out problem number one, which could have been done over 2 or 3 transfer windows. We then faced problem number 2 and have just ended up with neither issue being sorted out properly, and just a load of new faces. Some who've made a great impact, others who have been woeful. Over recent seasons, there's always been that little bit extra we've needed. Squad cover is great, but we've needed better quality. This is one of the reasons why i can sort of get Harry's persistence with the same team. it was very frustrating, but perhaps he just didn't have the confidence in other players to deliver that top 4 finish which was expected. If we'd spent that little bit extra over 3 years and sorted problem number 1, that could have been the difference to us getting CL football in the last 3/3 seasons. £90 million sounds good eh? we might have only had to spend a small chunk of that to have made the difference. we even achieved that £30 mill once, but when we got into this competition that is the "be all and end all" of football, we did nothing to strengthen properly! gifted the opportunity and still didn't take advantage of it!! are we honestly saying that a 5 mill net spend over 5 years is all we can afford?! if this is the case, then fair enough. but I don't believe for one minute that it is, despite a new stadium. But regardless, if this our approximate net spend, it certainly doesn't fall anywhere close to even thinking about competing with others at the top of the table so we don't deserve the right to expect a 4th place finish. IMO, Harry's experience and knowledge (most of the time) was the reason for us sustaining such a high position. Unfortunately, I think we're now feeling the force of reality, having lost him and 3 key players that were the heart of our team (Mods, VDV, King). Poor AVB just can't win and doesn't stand a bloody chance. If it's not the press on his back, its the fans. he can't do anything right. Tarnished with the fiasco as chelsea, everyone just seems to have it in for him. it's pathetic. If I was him I'd actually feel really let down by Daniel Levy, he just hasn't invested enough into the squad bearing in mind all of the changes and the transition and certainly didn't get the timing right with anything. He's been completely handicapped from day one. This is what bugs me about our expectation for 4th. Our spend is more inline with clubs below us, yet the manager is expected to perform miracles and compete with clubs who are in a completely different ball park, with the added problem of having his hands tied behind his back. No chance. we either spend a bit, to show that we're much different to those below us as well as show that we're at least trying to compete with those above us, or, just accept that a lower place finish is acceptable, as money is such a big part of the game. it's been the same pattern with us for the last 3 years, when's it going to change?
but we got into the CL once Bajan. that was our opportunity to strengthen and we didn't do enough. Look at how many players we've got rid of over the last year or 2. The 12 point gap comes from Harry playing the same players because of the pressure to finish 4th and not having confidence in the other players in the squad, why so many have been shipped out. (or not working hard enough in training) The squad issue is problem that could have been addressed better and perhaps might have made the difference to us being in the CL this season. if the club isn't prepared to "grab the bull by the horns" and take advantage of the opportunity to strengthen when we were in the CL, then we can't talk about how it's "cost us dearly". we had a chance and didn't do enough.
