Learning lessons

[Spurf]

Sos I understand your frustrations but I still think it's too early for such a damming judgement. You cannot dismiss so lightly the absence of players like Parker, Dembele, BAE, Kaboul with just a yes but. These are crucial players to our team and whoever was in charge would struggle with such absences.

Also I would have thought of all the criticisms of AVB the tactics arguments is the least, if anything the charge should be too much tactics.

We have done a complete about face by changing from a manager with the philosophy of I pick the team just go out and play to one armed with notes, instructions, dossiers and clip boards.

Walker for one has come out and said he likes it, has confidence in AVB but asks for time for the team to change. He has managed to get more out of Defoe than the previous manager did. I think JD is one player who has benefited from more instruction.

Personally I am not a great believer in so many dossiers and clip boards but I am told this is the modern way and is essential in the modern game, but I do know that if you use this method and neglect gut feelings when the match is on you are in danger of missing the point.

I am old enough to remember Don Revie's disastrous management of the England team with his dossiers but it had worked well when he was at Leeds.

AVB is bound to be in the 'technical' camp because he has never played the game at high level, I just hope he does not lose sight of the play on the field because of it.

 

[vimhawk]

I always remember seeing Man U in the early days of Ferguson's reign and thinking he doesn't have a clue. That's why I will keep my powder dry on AVB for the moment.

SAF had three seasons of not performing, AVB isn't going to get half of one in the minds of many on here. Different times. The world is all about short termism, you see it in all walks of life. Planning for the future, even when it makes economic sense is a dying art.

A bit off topic:
My mate makes highly durable signs. They cost more than normal signs but last far far longer. If you need something to last more than 10 years its far cheaper to buy his signs than replace cheaper ones two or three times. But many won't buy them and admit frankly that their budget won't allow them. Their budgets are controlled so microscopically over the short term, that they can never justify paying more for something that will last, but can get the money for something cheaper. What about shares? People used to hold them until their true value was realised. Now the markets are controlled by short term traders and shorters. There's many more examples, but I tend to go off on a tangent on this one!

 

[Dier Hard]

Hi Spurf,

I'm just getting to the point where I'm just losing any faith (didn't have much as many of you know) in the manager.

I appreciate and have said it's not easy when you have a number of injuries to key players but I don't think the sole blame of why we've been so poor can be blamed on that.

We've still seen shocking performances from the team despite having players of a good standard (or you'd think of a good standard) on the pitch. Of the key players out, the one's I feel we truly miss are Kaboul and Dembele in my opinion. I say this as Sandro is covering Parker more than adequately in the DM role and Vertonghen has been great at left back in Benny's absence. But we have no creativity and drive in the centre of midfield where Mousa would be and without Younes at the back we look so weak at CB, especially aerially. Obviously without Parker and BAE we're depleted and do doubt about it when they're back they'll surely go straight into the team but we've got players who's covered their particular absences really well.

AVB is constantly selecting the same underperforming players while we have options on the bench that I consider better than his current selection or at least worthy to be given a chance:
Lloris > Friedel.
Dawson > Gallas.
Adebayor & Defoe > Adebayor & Dempsey/ Defoe & Dempsey.
Naughton deserves a chance over Walker. Sigurdsson deserves a chance over Dempsey.

It then doesn't help that near enough every sub he makes is defensively minded. **WE CAN'T DEFEND ANDRE!!!**. He makes these subs so early too, it's not like it's 80/85 mins on the clock and the opposition are now in full flow attack mode, most of the time, these subs are made at 65/70 meaning for a good 20+ minutes we'll likely be on the back foot and as every Spurs fan knows, we can't defend well as a collective unit.

I'd rather know he went to go for the win than play for a draw, which seems to be the case in far too many games. It's fair to say that at 1-0 up, we could all tell City were going to chuck everything at us and so an equalisor was probably on the cards but he shows no ambition to grab a second goal. To him it's basically 1-0 or nothing and I hate that approach and attitude.

So, so frustrating.

 

[Spurf]

Hi Spurf,

I'm just getting to the point where I'm just losing any faith (didn't have much as many of you know) in the manager.

I appreciate and have said it's not easy when you have a number of injuries to key players but I don't think the sole blame of why we've been so poor can be blamed on that.

We've still seen shocking performances from the team despite having players of a good standard (or you'd think of a good standard) on the pitch. Of the key players out, the one's I feel we truly miss are Kaboul and Dembele in my opinion. I say this as Sandro is covering Parker more than adequately in the DM role and Vertonghen has been great at left back in Benny's absence. But we have no creativity and drive in the centre of midfield where Mousa would be and without Younes at the back we look so weak at CB, especially aerially. Obviously without Parker and BAE we're depleted and do doubt about it when they're back they'll surely go straight into the team but we've got players who's covered their particular absences really well.

AVB is constantly selecting the same underperforming players while we have options on the bench that I consider better than his current selection or at least worthy to be given a chance:
Lloris > Friedel.
Dawson > Gallas.
Adebayor & Defoe > Adebayor & Dempsey/ Defoe & Dempsey.
Naughton deserves a chance over Walker. Sigurdsson deserves a chance over Dempsey.

It then doesn't help that near enough every sub he makes is defensively minded. **WE CAN'T DEFEND ANDRE!!!**. He makes these subs so early too, it's not like it's 80/85 mins on the clock and the opposition are now in full flow attack mode, most of the time, these subs are made at 65/70 meaning for a good 20+ minutes we'll likely be on the back foot and as every Spurs fan knows, we can't defend well as a collective unit.

I'd rather know he went to go for the win than play for a draw, which seems to be the case in far too many games. It's fair to say that at 1-0 up, we could all tell City were going to chuck everything at us and so an equalisor was probably on the cards but he shows no ambition to grab a second goal. To him it's basically 1-0 or nothing and I hate that approach and attitude.

So, so frustrating.

I don't think Verts is as good for Bale as Benny is. We miss the positive moves from the left with his absence. I think Verts is a very good player but would prefer to see him at CB rather than LB.

I agree about the defensive subs. but is this AVB with his 'plan'? Taking off Ade was very difficult to understand I think most of us thought that Defoe for Dempsey would have been the obvious.

I still think AVB is learning about his players, it takes time. Dawson came on and his strength an attitude must have impressed him?

We all hate defensive methods with Spurs we are just not that kind of team. The biggest flaw for me yesterday was the non event of Bale & Lennon but in this team without BAE and Dembele that's what's going to happen against top sides.

 

[NSIS]

He never would have been my choice of manager, but once in situ, I was fully prepared to give him his chance, and be proven wrong. I now have more serious doubts than ever. As many of us have said, the guy seems to learn nothing. He is either too stupid ( hard to believe) too arrogant, or too stubborn to admit that he's getting several things wrong. That is worrying!

 

[vimhawk]

There is a big assumption here that we invited the pressure by "going defensive" (including making defensive substitutions). However it is often the match which dictates this, not the manager. Yesterday Man$ started piling on the pressure and I guarantee that no offensive substitution would have made any difference to that. You can't suddenly decide, "OK it's our turn to attack now", as much as we would like to be able to do that. Yes we might question particular personnel being replaced/added but yesterday we faced the league champions ramping up the pressure and I think AVB's options were limited.

 

[Spurf]

There is a big assumption here that we invited the pressure by "going defensive" (including making defensive substitutions). However it is often the match which dictates this, not the manager. Yesterday Man$ started piling on the pressure and I guarantee that no offensive substitution would have made any difference to that. You can't suddenly decide, "OK it's our turn to attack now", as much as we would like to be able to do that. Yes we might question particular personnel being replaced/added but yesterday we faced the league champions ramping up the pressure and I think AVB's options were limited.

True except that we did start to attack them when a goal down but by then we had subbed Ade and just did not have the guile to open them up. Compare this performance to last season when arguably City were player better but we were much closer to them in that game and but for a few inches could have come away with the points. We were no where near that close this season. This is a fall off from last season and yes I know you have take into account the injury list, but with attacking intent we could have given them a much tougher time.

 

[Spur of the Moment]

I don't think Verts is as good for Bale as Benny is. We miss the positive moves from the left with his absence. I think Verts is a very good player but would prefer to see him at CB rather than LB.

I agree about the defensive subs. but is this AVB with his 'plan'? Taking off Ade was very difficult to understand I think most of us thought that Defoe for Dempsey would have been the obvious.

I still think AVB is learning about his players, it takes time. Dawson came on and his strength an attitude must have impressed him?

We all hate defensive methods with Spurs we are just not that kind of team. The biggest flaw for me yesterday was the non event of Bale & Lennon but in this team without BAE and Dembele that's what's going to happen against top sides.

This

I think Verts is a top player and when he played the first couple of games at LB it looked like we wouldn't miss Benny too much. In particular, the first half at MunUre. But as the weeks have passed, he is looking less and less assured and yesterday looked decidedly uncomfortable. (Now I certainly put some of that down to Bale not tracking back effectively or putting their defenders under more pressure!)

Hopefully, Benny will be back sooner rather than later and Verts can revert to CB. Then the problem will be accommodating him, Kaboul and Caulker!!

 

[Dier Hard]

I don't think Verts is as good for Bale as Benny is. We miss the positive moves from the left with his absence. I think Verts is a very good player but would prefer to see him at CB rather than LB.

I agree about the defensive subs. but is this AVB with his 'plan'? Taking off Ade was very difficult to understand I think most of us thought that Defoe for Dempsey would have been the obvious.

I still think AVB is learning about his players, it takes time. Dawson came on and his strength an attitude must have impressed him?

We all hate defensive methods with Spurs we are just not that kind of team. The biggest flaw for me yesterday was the non event of Bale & Lennon but in this team without BAE and Dembele that's what's going to happen against top sides.

Completely agree that a Benny & Bale combo is way better but I think Verts has done more than well covering what I suppose is his "2nd positon" - lets not forget he is a CB so won't have the pace (and probably stamina) like Benny does to be able to either keep up or overlap with Bale. As soon as Benny returns, I want him straight back in with Verts back at CB partnering one of Caulker or Dawson while Kaboul is out (fat chance with AVB's love for Gallas).

I think you're being too generous though by saying he's still learning about his players. He's had XI league games in which he's pretty much selected the same team give or take a couple injuries and then he's had the option of playing experimental selections in the cups. For me, Dawson has been great in the appearances he made, Naughton has looked far more solid than Walker and I've preferred Lloris' performances to that of Friedels, even if both have made mistakes - yet neither of these players have been given a chance to fully impress in the league despite playing well and their competition underperforming. For me, he's either learning at a very, very slow pace or has learnt nothing at all because there's no sign what so ever he's going to be handing opportunities to others any time soon.

Yeah I mentioned that the lack of creativity we had meant that Bale and Lennon were inneffective. They were more often than not tracking back to collect the ball (looked more like full backs than attacking wingers!) which by then, they had 2 or 3 City players surrounding them making it nigh on impossible for them to be able to get up further and create something. Why didn't he give Tommy Carroll or Sigurdsson a go at CM when Hudd was clearly off the pace after the first half and not creating anything?
He chose to take Ade off instead of Dempsey, Naughton came on for Lennon and Walker for Dawson (though my cousin reckoned he saw Walker limp down the tunnel so may have needed to make that sub), all three are subs made with little ambition in my opinion and I'm just tired of seeing the boring approach to our games under AVB.

 

[notsosmartspur]

Sos I understand your frustrations but I still think it's too early for such a damming judgement. You cannot dismiss so lightly the absence of players like Parker, Dembele, BAE, Kaboul with just a yes but. These are crucial players to our team and whoever was in charge would struggle with such absences.

There is some truth in that, but there has still been games we've fielded a stronger team than we've faced, even without them, and still drawn/lost in the same manner, doesn't seem to matter who's on the pitch to me. Tbh, we have enough depth if used correctly for all of those bar Dembele imo, not against the top sides, against them unless they have an off day we will come up short, but we should have enough for the other teams we've played.

 

[Spurf]

There is some truth in that, but there has still been games we've fielded a stronger team than we've faced, even without them, and still drawn/lost in the same manner, doesn't seem to matter who's on the pitch to me. Tbh, we have enough depth if used correctly for all of those bar Dembele imo, not against the top sides, against them unless they have an off day we will come up short, but we should have enough for the other teams we've played.

Agreed except that this is not new we have suffered against 'lesser' teams in Redknapp's time and before in a similar way. When relying on superior skills and flair it must be matched with versatility and effort. Even Barca came up short against Celtic and Chelsea despite their 'quality' advantage.

It's one of the great things about football that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Dier Hard]

This

I think Verts is a top player and when he played the first couple of games at LB it looked like we wouldn't miss Benny too much. In particular, the first half at MunUre. But as the weeks have passed, he is looking less and less assured and yesterday looked decidedly uncomfortable. (Now I certainly put some of that down to Bale not tracking back effectively or putting their defenders under more pressure!)

Hopefully, Benny will be back sooner rather than later and Verts can revert to CB. Then the problem will be accommodating him, Kaboul and Caulker!!

Agreed RE Verts. I too thought Benny would have trouble getting back but it's safe to say that Verts is definitely a better CB and although deserves huge praise and credit for the way he's filled in at LB, Benny's return back from injury couldn't be more anticpated!

I think Bale back tracked quite a bit though. He was in our half more so than theirs which was frustrating (as was Lennon). Whenever he had the ball, City already had 2 or 3 players surrounding him making it pretty much impossible to create anything.

In terms of accomodating Kaboul (when back), Caulker and Vertonghen. I think at the moment Kaboul & Vertonghen should/ will be first choice. Caulker has stepped up massively (as expected by many of us too which is great) but I'd say that Kaboul and Verts are superior at the moment. Caulker should be 3rd choice with Dawson 4th (Gallas should only be near the squad when all of them are injured).
ALTHOUGH! While Walker has been so poor and AVB doesn't seem to want to give Naughton any chance, what about putting Kaboul RB (where he's been impressive before) with Vertonghen and Caulker as CBs?

 

[PowerSpurs]

AVB is constantly selecting the same underperforming players while we have options on the bench that I consider better than his current selection or at least worthy to be given a chance:
Lloris > Friedel.
Dawson > Gallas.
Adebayor & Defoe > Adebayor & Dempsey/ Defoe & Dempsey.
Naughton deserves a chance over Walker. Sigurdsson deserves a chance over Dempsey.

The only one of these I agree strongly with is Lloris being better than Friedel and that didn't make the difference yesterday. The others are judgement calls at best. While Dempsey was very poor as an attacker yesterday he did a lot of tracking back and despite that we were overrun in midfield. This had the consequence that Bale, Lennon and Ade never got the ball. How putting Defoe on for Dempsey at any point would have made that better is beyond me. You can have as many attacking players on the pitch as you like, but you can't attack without the ball. Replacing Dempsey with Sig or Carroll could have worked out.
I thought starting with Gallas and Caulker made sense as they are better than Dawson against tricky players like Tevez and Aguero. When Dzeko came on AVB took the opportunity of Walker's injury to bring on Dawson which ought to have counter-balanced Dzeko's strength in the air. Unfortunately Dawson couldn't keep close enough to him on the ground to stop the goal.
AVB has had three to five quality players missing for each match so far. Some of the ones actually playing are not performing well (particularly Walker). I don't think this is down to the tactics. When I get a moment I will check Harry's record last year when missing three of his first choice team - I'm sure it will be worse than AVB's!

 

[Spur of the Moment]

I was more concerned about Bale when Maicon came on - he was able to dominate that flank, which put Verts under pressure.
We do have options at CB and while Kaboul could fill in at RB for an under par Walker, I am not sure the opportunity shouldn't be taken to bring on the development of Naughton (or Smith - why did we loan him out????)

Is there a confirmed return date for Benny? I thought it was imminent but he has not been mentioned in the last week. I am hoping that no news is good news about Kaboul and that he is still on course for a December return?

 

[Dier Hard]

The only one of these I agree strongly with is Lloris being better than Friedel and that didn't make the difference yesterday. The others are judgement calls at best. While Dempsey was very poor as an attacker yesterday he did a lot of tracking back and despite that we were overrun in midfield. This had the consequence that Bale, Lennon and Ade never got the ball. How putting Defoe on for Dempsey at any point would have made that better is beyond me. You can have as many attacking players on the pitch as you like, but you can't attack without the ball. Replacing Dempsey with Sig or Carroll could have worked out.
I thought starting with Gallas and Caulker made sense as they are better than Dawson against tricky players like Tevez and Aguero. When Dzeko came on AVB took the opportunity of Walker's injury to bring on Dawson which ought to have counter-balanced Dzeko's strength in the air. Unfortunately Dawson couldn't keep close enough to him on the ground to stop the goal.
AVB has had three to five quality players missing for each match so far. Some of the ones actually playing are not performing well (particularly Walker). I don't think this is down to the tactics. When I get a moment I will check Harry's record last year when missing three of his first choice team - I'm sure it will be worse than AVB's!

I think Lloris could have made a massive difference yesterday. He's far quicker off his line than Friedel and had Friedel been quicker/ Lloris had been on the pitch, the first goal could have been prevented.

Why is Gallas more suited though? Gallas 3 or 4 years ago when he had speed in his game perhaps so but now he's basically just a smaller version of Dawson... And therefore Dawson is a better choice in my opinion as his height and aerial ability eclipse Gallas'. On the ground, both are slow and I don't rate neither as a better tackler than the other.

What tracking back did Dempsey do of note though? Any tracking back he did was void anyway as I don't remember any decent tackle or any pressure he made on the attacking player.

Playing Defoe over Dempsey with Adebayor or taking Dempsey off for Defoe would to me have shown ambition to go for it. Yes the creativity was poor yesterday but having two out and out strikers allows us too, (even though I hate route 1) knock a ball up to Ade in the hope that he'd lay it off for a predator like Defoe to finish. Dempsey's movement and instincts aren't as good as Defoe's and at the moment, Defoe and Adebayor are far superior players anyway (in my opinion) so I'm confused at Dempsey's constant inclusion over one or the other.

I won't get into a debate about Harry or AVB though. I'm sure you all know my stance and impressions of the pair.

 

[PowerSpurs]

On a quick look there were twelve games last season where Harry was missing three or more of his first choice XI of Friedel, Walker, Kaboul, King, BAE, Lennon, Modric, Parker, Bale VdV, Ade. We got 17 points from those games - exactly the same as AVB has managed from 11 so far.......but obviously we should have had enough to beat the likes of Norwich and Aston Villa.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Why is Gallas more suited though? Gallas 3 or 4 years ago when he had speed in his game perhaps so but now he's basically just a smaller version of Dawson... And therefore Dawson is a better choice in my opinion as his height and aerial ability eclipse Gallas'. On the ground, both are slow and I don't rate neither as a better tackler than the other.

Gallas has much better positional sense than Dawson which makes him a better bet against small skillful forwards. Dawson edges it on aerial ability and strength so is better against the bigger guys.

 

[Dier Hard]

Gallas has much better positional sense than Dawson which makes him a better bet against small skillful forwards. Dawson edges it on aerial ability and strength so is better against the bigger guys.

I think Gallas' positional play is questionable. He was the one that allowed Watson to get to the rebound after Friedel parried out for the Wigan goal... Gallas should have been goal side of Watson, had he been, there's a good chance that goal could've been prevented even if the initial fault was Friedel's for palming it straight into the centre of the box.

 

[NSIS]

There is a big assumption here that we invited the pressure by "going defensive" (including making defensive substitutions). However it is often the match which dictates this, not the manager. Yesterday Man$ started piling on the pressure and I guarantee that no offensive substitution would have made any difference to that. You can't suddenly decide, "OK it's our turn to attack now", as much as we would like to be able to do that. Yes we might question particular personnel being replaced/added but yesterday we faced the league champions ramping up the pressure and I think AVB's options were limited.

Yes, his options may have been limited. But, he still managed to pick the wrong ones!

 

[NSIS]

Gallas has much better positional sense than Dawson which makes him a better bet against small skillful forwards. Dawson edges it on aerial ability and strength so is better against the bigger guys.

It doesn't have to be a straight choice between Gallas & Dawson, IMO. Naughton could play LB, and move Vertonghen to his favoured position in the centre. We all know AVB doesn't seem to rate Dawson, but he at least deserves a shot - especially given the way Gallas has played recently. He really looks way past sell by date.